Joe Pass Chord and Scale Grips

[lawson-stone]

Is this album nylon? Sometimes a very sweet acoustic archtop almost sounds like nylon.


-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

[MarkRhodes]

I'm not saying he's without influences, of course. But your description of him makes him sound later, more distinctly a successor, to Wes and Barney, when he really was not. I hear almost no Kessel influence in Joe's playing, and actually not even much Wes. In fact, you could say Joe's approach with harmonizing melodies was dramatically different from Wes' "block chord and octaves" sound, and again very different from the way Kessel operated.

Didn't Joe speak of Django as his biggest influence? When an interviewer (-Jas Obrecht, I believe) pointed out Joe didn't sound much like Django, Joe said he hadn't copied Django's playing at all. And he doesn't sound like Django. But Django was a huge influence on him.

[lawson-stone]

Didn't Joe speak of Django as his biggest influence? When an interviewer (-Jas Obrecht, I believe) pointed out Joe didn't sound much like Django, Joe said he hadn't copied Django's playing at all. And he doesn't sound like Django. But Django was a huge influence on him.

Joe might not "sound like" Django, but anyone who can't spot the connection to Django in Joe's playing has to be deaf. The apparent effortless technique, the almost baroque, fine ornamentation of their lines, like spiny wrought-iron work, at the same time sinewy and delicate but hard as iron, the sheer speed and apparent absence of any constraint on their technique, and even the indifference on equipment and lack of obsession with "perfect tone" all connect these two great players. You don't have to cop lines from a player to be influenced. Sometimes it's a kind of family likeness.

On the other hand, I honestly can't see much of any connection between Wes Montgomery or Barney Kessel with Joe Pass' playing. The whole sensibility and approach is vastly different. The very architecture of their solos is poles apart. Joe also says he wasn't much influenced by Charlie Christian, and I can agree with that too. He simply isn't that guitaristic, but seems mainly pianistic and horn-like.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

On the other hand, I honestly can't see much of any connection between Wes Montgomery or Barney Kessel with Joe Pass' playing. The whole sensibility and approach is vastly different. The very architecture of their solos is poles apart. Joe also says he wasn't much influenced by Charlie Christian, and I can agree with that too. He simply isn't that guitaristic, but seems mainly pianistic and horn-like.

i think there is quite a connection between (early) joe pass and wes.

[destinytot]

Is this album nylon? Sometimes a very sweet acoustic archtop almost sounds like nylon.


-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

The first seven seconds tell me that it's nylon, using fingers without nails. I'm curious to know what you and others discern there. (I feel sure about it, but - as Mr Waller would say - "One never never knows, do one?")

[wintermoon]

i think there is quite a connection between (early) joe pass and wes.

my favorite Groove Holmes lp [big fan am I] and Joe plays great [though it sounds like he's still using that plunky sounding Jazzmaster]
as good as Joe plays on it I much prefer the tracks w/Gene Edwards, he sounds greasier and fits the organ tradition better.

[wintermoon]

The first seven seconds tell me that it's nylon, using fingers without nails. I'm curious to know what you and others discern there. (I feel sure about it, but - as Mr Waller would say - "One never never knows, do one?")

nylon for sure

[dortmundjazzguitar]

nice rhodes-like solo:

[dortmundjazzguitar]

early pass:

[lawson-stone]

i think there is quite a connection between (early) joe pass and wes.

I have this album and enjoy it, but honestly I don't hear a particle of connection with Wes Montgomery here. Every note is articulated "hard," almost no block-chords or even chordal accents, no octaves, and none of that crazy Wes-Time tempo that is so hard to emulate. Joe sounds here like the Sounds of Synanon player, straight-up bebop, picked with very positive articulation, very little sliding, slurring, or other such techniques that Wes employed as part of his use of his thumb.

Help me here, but I just don't hear any Wes.

[lawson-stone]

i think there is quite a connection between (early) joe pass and wes.

I'm also trying to remember... had Wes done the recordings with the organ by 1962, when the Groove Holmes album was made? I thought Wes' collaborations with Jimmy Smith came later, maybe 1965?

[lawson-stone]

early pass:

That's some of the most terrifying accordion playing I've ever heard! Joe Pass actually had a kind of weakness for accordions--his old friend and founder of Polytone, Tommy Gumina, was an accordion player.

I see nothing here to link to Wes Montgomery. Joe sounds like an aspiring bop player-hard, clear articulation, not much slurring, hammering, almost no chord playing, no octaves, just saxophone-like bop lines.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I see nothing here to link to Wes Montgomery.

neither do i. just an early clip of pass' playing to enjoy.

[John A.]

I have this album and enjoy it, but honestly I don't hear a particle of connection with Wes Montgomery here. Every note is articulated "hard," almost no block-chords or even chordal accents, no octaves, and none of that crazy Wes-Time tempo that is so hard to emulate. Joe sounds here like the Sounds of Synanon player, straight-up bebop, picked with very positive articulation, very little sliding, slurring, or other such techniques that Wes employed as part of his use of his thumb.

Help me here, but I just don't hear any Wes.

According to Pass himself (at least in this interview), Wes was an influence on him.

Joe Pass Interview

It's hard to say what that influence is because we don't know what Pass sounded like before he heard Wes. But there are common elements in their playing that could speak to that -- I'd say time, the way both of their solos have such a strong sense of structure and composition, and the way they incorporate blues vocabulary into non-blues tunes. For people at this level, influence is not about copying technique. It's about the way encountering someone else's aesthetic opens new aesthetic doors.

John

[MarkRhodes]

The accordion player (-who is fantastic) brought to mind this New Yorker cartoon:

Attachment 30611

[lawson-stone]

he recorded with rhyne before 1960. but anyway, the clip just shows the similarities in phrasing and *content*. i don't know who was influenced by whom. imo they just came to similar conclusions in the late 40s and early 50s.

I think you're right--lots of people were doing this. But I can't even hear similarities in phrasing and content between what JP does and what Wes does. Thought I'm a JP fan, I much prefer Wes in this context than JP. I just don't find JP's crisply articulated bebop lines meshing with the organ as well as Wes' softer attack and his own unique, nobody-else-can-do-it melodic sense.

Seriously: Wes does things melodically that are utterly beautiful, but which I can find no real category or classification for except "Whoa, that's just Wes!"

Very few musicians get me thinking every 30 seconds or so, "WAIT-where did that come from?"

[EarlBrother]

I thought i heard Joe say when learning he wanted to sound like the horn players and so tried to learn their licks.they were his influences not other guitar players.

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I think you're right--lots of people were doing this.

i'm not so sure. who do you have in mind? burrell phrased more like a blues guitarist and lacks the in-the-pocket feel. raney had the bop language but chose a more intellectual and less "churchy" approach. same with singer and, to a lesser degree, bauer. farlow was all over the place rhythmically. bean and mcfadden came later.

imo that leaves wes and pass as the first generation of hard-bop guitarists. both were probably fully formed around 1953-1955, using very similar melodic content, less legato and a bouncier phrasing than e.g raney. to me it's not surprising that pass would fit in so well with those funky units in the later 60s. wasn't he also with the original jazz crusaders?

[EarlBrother]

John A.Thanks for posting the interview!Several important life principles to take from it.

[lawson-stone]

i'm not so sure. who do you have in mind? burrell phrased more like a blues guitarist and lacks the in-the-pocket feel. raney had the bop language but chose a more intellectual and less "churchy" approach. same with singer and, to a lesser degree, bauer. farlow was all over the place rhythmically. bean and mcfadden came later.

imo that leaves wes and pass as the first generation of hard-bop guitarists. both were probably fully formed around 1953-1955, using very similar melodic content, less legato and a bouncier phrasing than e.g raney. to me it's not surprising that pass would fit in so well with those funky units in the later 60s. wasn't he also with the original jazz crusaders?

I think you're right there. I have this impression of lots of organ ensembles with guitars, but it isn't grounded on much except maybe that the "Guitar Jazz" channel of jazzradio.com seems to play a lot of 50's sounding organ-guitar ensembles!

I think your second paragraph nails the point I've been trying to make. I see Wes and Joe as peers and not so much as linear.

Don't know about the jazz crusaders, Joe got around more than we generally realize. He just had a very erratic decade in the 50's.

[Greentone]

Lots going on in this thread. What a treat.

Everybody should realize that Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, etc., ALL used simple, useful grips when playing lightning fast chordal lines. The Internet has been a godsend. You can see that these guys are using 6/9, min11, simple 3-string 7th and 9th chords to imply much more sophisticated sounds, while leaving fingers free for pedal tones and leading notes. Tal Farlow and Johnny Smith could find some close-interval stretch chords that perplex players with less than gorilla hands, but Pass, Kessel, and Montgomery were getting the job done with intense swing.

Pass v. Kessel? Fortunately, we have them both to treasure and celebrate. I must say, though, that I grew up on the Poll Winners albums. The trio is insane. You wouldn't want to have challenged _anybody_ on that stage. There was a reason that Kessel, Ray Brown, and Shelly Manne topped the jazz polls on their respective instruments for several years. To me, only the Oscar Peterson Trio ('53-'58) and the Bill Evans Trio (w/Scotty LaFaro) are in the same league for that style of jazz. Well...let me add the trios with Jimmy Giuffre, Jim Hall, and Bob Brookmeyer, and Giuffre, Hall, and Ralph Pena.

If you haven't checked out these trios, I strongly recommend them. Kessel, Herb Ellis (Peterson), and Hall are talents as worthy of consideration as the great Joe Pass.

[lawson-stone]

Lots going on in this thread. What a treat.

Everybody should realize that Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Wes Montgomery, etc., ALL used simple, useful grips when playing lightning fast chordal lines. The Internet has been a godsend. You can see that these guys are using 6/9, min11, simple 3-string 7th and 9th chords to imply much more sophisticated sounds, while leaving fingers free for pedal tones and leading notes. Tal Farlow and Johnny Smith could find some close-interval stretch chords that perplex players with less than gorilla hands, but Pass, Kessel, and Montgomery were getting the job done with intense swing.

Pass v. Kessel? Fortunately, we have them both to treasure and celebrate. I must say, though, that I grew up on the Poll Winners albums. The trio is insane. You wouldn't want to have challenged _anybody_ on that stage. There was a reason that Kessel, Ray Brown, and Shelly Manne topped the jazz polls on their respective instruments for several years. To me, only the Oscar Peterson Trio ('53-'58) and the Bill Evans Trio (w/Scotty LaFaro) are in the same league for that style of jazz. Well...let me add the trios with Jimmy Giuffre, Jim Hall, and Bob Brookmeyer, and Giuffre, Hall, and Ralph Pena.

If you haven't checked out these trios, I strongly recommend them. Kessel, Herb Ellis (Peterson), and Hall are talents as worthy of consideration as the great Joe Pass.

Naturally I totally agree. In the annals of great jazz guitar trio recordings, though, I think Joe Pass, Ray Brown and Bobby Durham nailed it on this one. Classic Joe Pass tone at (IMO) at its best, major swing and drive, and great tunes.