Dream collaborations or supergroups that worked, those that didn't

[Doctor Jeff]

The thread on Hendrix/Miles got me thinking--why aren't there more of those? Why don't great musicians just get together and jam and record?

So here's my theory--collaborations among equals work when the participants are able to put aside their egos and really play together with a give and take, no one person in the driver's seat. That means really respecting where the other person is coming from, not just using him/her as a "special sauce". That's actually pretty rare among musicians at the very top of the foodchain.

Some successful jazz collaborations that that come to mind include John Coltrane/Kenny Burrell, John Coltrane/Johnny Hartman, Jim Hall/Bill Evans, John McLaughlin/Carlos Santana, Pat Metheny/John Scofield, Pat Metheny/Ornette Coleman, Ella/Louis, Ella/Joe.

As far as supergroups, how about Return to Forever? Also Gary Burton's recordings come to mind--even with his name on them they seem to have a great deal of input from everyone.

There are a number of great cross-cultural collaborations including several by Vassar Clements (can't find the names right now), David Grisman and his Dawg music, YoYo Ma's albums with Edgar Meyer and Mark O'Connor and Yoyo's Silk Road Ensemble, several with Bela Fleck. YoYo Ma is maybe the perfect example of a superstar who is able to participate in many different projects without overwhelming the other participants.

I would point out that one common thread is a degree of humbleness or quietness or sensitivity among all these musicians (though one would not accuse Pat or John of having small egos...).

A lot of famous supergroups on the other hand are really just one guy--Eric Clapton for instance--with extremely talented sidemen who by themselves (at the time) were not on the same level of fame and accomplishment. Which usually leads to resentment and the "supergroup" breaking up shortly thereafter.

And then there are the collaborations that just don't live up to expectations. Asia, for instance. The Travelling Wilburys is OK but would be in the lower tier of each artists records. Mick Jagger's side projects are just bland and rudderless without Keith and the boys. Same with Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder.

I can't think of too many bad jazz collaborations offhand, but I'm sure they're out there.

Whadya think?

[Robertkoa]

Well, you touched on "Blind Faith" with Clapton and Winwood/ Ginger Baker.

You had Clapton an excellent singer and of course Winwood a great singer ..and Traffic had some really great Jazz flirtations.

And Clapton's Great Guitar and Winwood's
excellent Guitar/Great Keys/ Writing.
They had some excuses about Blind Faith but really just didn't give it enough time to write more material and gel.
And "Can't Find My Way Home" is a beautiful Acoustic Tune with a great Vocal by Winwood...
Had they stayed together and brought the reed guy from Traffic...would have been a great group.


And Clapton and Winwood gelled before in Powerhouse..
Here's a cool version of Crossroads by Powerhouse listen to Winwood's amazing Vocal.



Crossroads - Eric Clapton and the Powerhouse:

[cosmic gumbo]

Did someone say supergroup....anybody remember SuperHeavy from about 4 years ago? Pretty badass...

[MarkRhodes]

Well, you touched on "Blind Faith" with Clapton and Winwood/ Ginger Baker.

You had Clapton an excellent singer and of course Winwood a great singer ..and Traffic had some really great Jazz flirtations.

Loved Traffic.

[Melodic Dreamer]

I personally didn't care for either John McLaughlin/Carlos Santana, and/or Pat Metheny/John Scofield's collaborations. Even if the musicians can put aside their ego some spices don't work as good as others.

[Irez87]

Loved Traffic.

And these three men made a solemn vow

John Barley Corn must die... (different record)

My dad raised me on those records. That, Dylan, Young, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Beatles, and Coltrane...

Not bad, pop!

Winwood was quite the musician, and sounded like he was internalizing a lot of jazz in his playing as well.

Love this cut:

[feral guitar]

trio of doom

[Encinitastubes]

I personally didn't care for either John McLaughlin/Carlos Santana, and/or Pat Metheny/John Scofield's collaborations. Even if the musicians can put aside their ego some spices don't work as good as others.

I agree with this. I don't think those collaborations worked. I' not to sure about the jazz guitarist/rock guitarist mix and I thought Scofield worked much better with Frisell. To be frank, I'm not sure the whole supergroup concept applies to jazz. The nature of it, to me, is improvised music. That should typically involve either many different collaborations or, on the other end of the spectrum, a tight nucleus that plays together for a long time.

[Cunamara]

Winwood was quite the musician, and sounded like he was internalizing a lot of jazz in his playing as well.

Well, we have to remember that Winwood, Clapton, the Beatles, the Stones, the Dead, Jefferson Airplane, CSN(Y), Phish, etc., grew up in an era where jazz was still on the radio on a daily basis. They were exposed to those sounds as part of their cultural experience and some of those things made it into their music. I can remember seeing jazz greats on TV in prime time when I was a kid (I'm 56).

Listening- as very little as I can, admittedly- to Britney Spears, Taylor Swift, Adele, etc., I hear little to indicate that they have had much exposure to jazz; if they have, they have likely deliberately sought it out rather than being casually exposed to it like the previous generations. Lady Gaga, whose name I can barely bing myself to say out loud because it's so silly, seems to have been an exception to this and I have no doubt there are many more that I just don't recognize.

[Cunamara]

Why don't great musicians just get together and jam and record?

Well, wasn't that done hundreds of times on the Blue Note, Riverside, etc., records? Lots of those sessions were IMHO supergroup recordings; indeed it was almost par for the course for that era to have those kinds of recordings.

I mean, jeez, Kind of Blue: Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Cannonball Adderly on one record! It would be hard to have more of a supergroup in jazz then that. And also Jimmy Cobb, Paul Chambers and Wynton Kelly who were also top drawer musicians if perhaps not quite the same stature in terms of name recognition (but all well known in their own right among jazz fans).

I think the best example of a supergroup in which the individual egos were subsumed to the music was Wayne Shorter's "Speak No Evil" album. Brilliant ensemble playing all over the place on that record and superbly played and comped solos. One of the pinnacles of jazz!

[Eric Rowland]

[Doctor Jeff]

Well, wasn't that done hundreds of times on the Blue Note, Riverside, etc., records? Lots of those sessions were IMHO supergroup recordings; indeed it was almost par for the course for that era to have those kinds of recordings.

I mean, jeez, Kind of Blue: Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Cannonball Adderly on one record! It would be hard to have more of a supergroup in jazz then that. And also Jimmy Cobb, Paul Chambers and Wynton Kelly who were also top drawer musicians if perhaps not quite the same stature in terms of name recognition (but all well known in their own right among jazz fans).

I totally agree those Blue Note session were super! But those guys were not "superstars" outside a narrow group of jazz aficionados. I think there's an issue which arises when an artist reaches a certain level. Kind of Blue had super players, but 1) Miles was the hot guy and was clearly in charge and 2) the other guys were not at the same level of achievement as Miles. (Coltrane hadn't released Giant Steps yet for instance.)

One can't really imagine Davis and Coltrane making a great record as coequals after 1960 for instance. Or Davis and Hendrix. Or Davis and anyone.

[Doctor Jeff]

Superheavy was fun but hardly earthshattering.

Traffic was a great group that I love--hung together for quite awhile, though not without conflicts of course. I think the key there was that they were much more collaborative and innovative than many groups--not just Winwood's project but a real collaboration. None of them were full-blown superstars at that point as solo artists.

I personally like the JM/Santana collaborations. To each his own I guess...

[Cunamara]

I totally agree those Blue Note session were super! But those guys were not "superstars" outside a narrow group of jazz aficionados. I think there's an issue which arises when an artist reaches a certain level. Kind of Blue had super players, but 1) Miles was the hot guy and was clearly in charge and 2) the other guys were not at the same level of achievement as Miles. (Coltrane hadn't released Giant Steps yet for instance.)

One can't really imagine Davis and Coltrane making a great record as coequals after 1960 for instance. Or Davis and Hendrix. Or Davis and anyone.

Superstar is relative. Since this is a jazz forum, I focused on those who would be superstars in jazz. Their level of popularity simple can't be compared to pop musicians- just as, sorry to say, the are few if any pop superstars whose musicianship comes anywhere near even the average level for professional jazz musicians. Virtually none of them could solo competently through rhythm changes.

[Doctor Jeff]

I agree "superstar" and "supergroup" are arbitrary constructions. Certainly all those artists you named are icons in the jazz world--Bill Evans, Paul Chambers, etc. But they were hardly known outside the jazz realm. Some of them like Bill Evans hadn't really made a name for themselves yet.

I think there is something that happens to any artist when you achieve a certain level of success and notoriety that makes it hard for you to put your ego on pause and work with others on a coequal basis.

[henryrobinett]

Almost any of the Miles groups were super groups. Coltrane, Dolphy, McCoy and Elvin. There was the Giants of Jazz. Anyone remember them? I saw them in SF. Dizzy, Monk, Stitt, Art Blakey, McKibbon. I saw a super group in Oakland that was the most amazing concert I've ever seen or heard: Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Freddie Hubbard, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter and Elvin Jones.

Or to keep in provincially guitar: The Great Guitars. I saw them too and had a lesson with Kessel. Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and Charlie Byrd.Or McLaughlin, DiMeola (or teve Morse) and Paco.

[henryrobinett]

best concert of my life.

[henryrobinett]

rahsaan made everyone else look like merely good players. He was in a different league altogether.

[Jonah]

''Jim Hall/Bill Evans''I think it is now a reversed perspective that we look at it now... I think Jim Hall those days was not as well - known as Bill Evans... this record was probably one of his steps to a career as leader....The same concerns 'Kind of Blue' - the set is great of course... but who was a star at the moment except Miles? 'Coltrane/Burrell' - I believe that Kenny was much more solid investment at teh moment than Trane?We often forget that the greats do not see their future life as it is already lived through and completed. I read once that Jim Hall wanted to quit guitar (early 70s? or late 60s...) seems to be ridiculous now. Whatever it was... this can show how insecure it actually is... how the had to make decisions and build their lifes by themselves.

[Jonah]

And if we speak of collaboration of musicians already accomplished from point of you of industry.. I suppose in most cases (not all though!) it is business issue first of all... and in some cases it can be also a great outcome... but first impullse - I am sure - is a producer thinking about sales of the record. Norman Granz Parker Supersession is a good example of busuiness inititative - I am almost sure that Granz occaionally saw the chances and just took a risk becasue it was hardly possible to schedule such a session - and that resulted in a great live jam of great musicsions...

[henryrobinett]

Jazz at Massey Hall was definitely a super group, even at that time. That's why it was so important.

[henryrobinett]

[henryrobinett]

[Stuart Elliott]

One jazz supergroup that worked--Lester Young with Nat King Cole.

One that didn't work--Buddy Rich with Lester Young and Nat King Cole.

Other jazz supergroups that worked:
1. Ellington and Coltrane
2. Ellington and Coleman Hawkins
3. Ellington and Louis Armstrong
4. Ellington, Mingus and Roach (Money Jungle)
5. Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery
6. Jazz at the Philharmonic
7. Norman Granz Jam Sessions (more or less, studio versions of JATP)

[henryrobinett]

Yes! JATP. The first super groups.