Is There a Jazz Guitar Equivalent to Bill Evans?

**3625** · 10-30-2014, 08:21 AM

As far as a Bill Evans equivalent for guitar - I don't think it's really possible. That said, John Stowell's playing is very pianistic - particularly his use of clusters in chord voicings. He's probably come closer than most for getting a similar vibe to modern piano on guitar.

My favourite Lenny Breau was the album 'Cabin Fever' - solo nylon guitar. People who dig Bill Evans in particular seem to be drawn to his particular type of emotional lyricism. Electric archtops don't really seem conducive to that type of feeling, but nylon acoustic can get those sort of emotions if done well.

**AlsoRan** · 10-30-2014, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Richb

Hi Also,

HUGE fan. Maybe my fave jazz pianist of all. Particularly love the earlier records where he wasn't so prone to all that rushing stuff which came later...Portrait in Jazz, OJ Conceptions, Everybody Digs, The Duo Montreux 3 record, with his miraculous lines/trades with Eddie Gomez on "I Love you", and a most sublime version of Elsa - which is one of the most affecting waltzes I've ever heard. People forget his influence was beyond piano. He was (particularly) a rhythm innovator. All the across the barline phrasing anticipates the current/modern odd meter/asymmetrical stuff.
He did unfortunately rush heaps....especially later.

I am a recent convert (within the last few months) to Bill. I must be growing in my appreciation of Jazz because I always liked the faster, more uptempo songs. I originally put on Bill's CD as back ground music, but it just kind of "called" to me and lured me in. I found myself anxiously anticipating what he was going to do next.

For me, that is part of the essence of good improvising. I could be wrong but hey, I am still learning and growing in Jazz, and in appreciating music overall.

Thanks.

**AlsoRan** · 10-30-2014, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

...don't forget that at one time during the 60s piano players dismissed Evans playing as cocktail piano. Given Evans unique and fabulous harmonic approach I always found his critics somewhat unfair. But the criticism of Evans by his critics is part of historical record...

Your comment got my attention, 2b.

His recordings at the Village Vanguard kind of reminded me of "cocktail piano" - but in a nice way. The songs were like scenes from a movie, and created moods in me just the way good movie soundtracks do. They were so unique to me and hard to describe, and so different from my normal music selections.

**Sam Sherry** · 10-30-2014, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Regarding "weight and influence" among pianists, both Oscar Peterson, and McCoy Tyner were and still are revered. And don't count out Keith Jarrett who has always had a strong following of students. Whether the label was fair or not, don't forget that at one time during the 60s piano players dismissed Evans playing as cocktail piano. Given Evans unique and fabulous harmonic approach I always found his critics somewhat unfair. But the criticism of Evans by his critics is part of historical record.

Paul Warburton played bass in The Bill Evans Trio (with Phillie Joe) around 1963 for ten weeks. He's justifiably proud of that as you would imagine.

The way PW tells it -- not to speak for him of course -- around 1961/62 the jazz community across America was kinda ripe and ready for the lessons the BE3 had to offer. Evans would travel the country and find bands all over trying to work the "we-all-know-where-one-is" magic that the BE3 had brought to fruition. Of course, there aren't many LaFaros, Evans' or Motians, so the results were 'mixed at best.'

2B, I agree that later in the 60s and throughout the 70s the dominant pianistic influence was Tyner rather than Evans (as much as such a broad generalization can be accurate). It's certainly easy to picture the Tynerists pooh-poohing Evans as "cocktail pianism." People said the same things about Ahmad Jamal in the 50s.

Evans' pianistic influence seems to have grown again after his death. It would not be a surprise to see the same cycle repeat when McCoy Tyner moves on -- Thundering Bottom will be back en vogue again!

**2bornot2bop** · 10-30-2014, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

Paul Warburton played bass in The Bill Evans Trio (with Phillie Joe) around 1963 for ten weeks. He's justifiably proud of that as you would imagine.

The way PW tells it -- not to speak for him of course -- around 1961/62 the jazz community across America was kinda ripe and ready for the lessons the BE3 had to offer. Evans would travel the country and find bands all over trying to work the "we-all-know-where-one-is" magic that the BE3 had brought to fruition. Of course, there aren't many LaFaros, Evans' or Motians, so the results were 'mixed at best.'

2B, I agree that later in the 60s and throughout the 70s the dominant pianistic influence was Tyner rather than Evans (as much as such a broad generalization can be accurate). It's certainly easy to picture the Tynerists pooh-poohing Evans as "cocktail pianism." People said the same things about Ahmad Jamal in the 50s.

Evans' pianistic influence seems to have grown again after his death. It would not be a surprise to see the same cycle repeat when McCoy Tyner moves on -- Thundering Bottom will be back en vogue again!

Thanks for sharing the story. Having begun piano in '90, I was shocked to learn about the criticism of Evans playing...but that was always from jazz piano players.

I had several teachers, and knew several more...each of them thought of McCoy Tyner as a jazz piano giant. Personally, having seen both McCoy and Jamal perform live several times...it's still the Real McCoy from my seat...the guy is a literal demon at the piano...the only jazz pianist I've seen other than McCoy that made me feel the same way was the Cuban, Gonzalo Rubalcaba...he toured a bit with Charlie Haden when GR first arrived...GR...that cat is unreal...studied classical in his youth too....a rhythmic genius as well...

sorry for the OT interruption...a piano player should know better than to enter a BE-guitar discussion...

**Jonah** · 10-30-2014, 07:20 PM

I think Tyner is much more influential than Evans... there is kind of players who can make a school... they are usually really great, technically accomplished, develope concepts etc. their styl is adaptive, there are some elements in it that can be used by others without losing their identity

I heard many pianists strongly influenced by Tyner and at the same time I did not think of Tyner when they played

They usually follow Tyner, Peterson, Hancock, Brubeck or whoever

But Evans is beyond it... actually I cannot remember any pianist who really follows him...

He speaks from the other side... like Trane - he blows the first note and it is like he is form some other world...

PS
Rubalcaba is cool, but this is completely here on this side. BUt his record with HAden is fantastic - but count it on Haden more.. he had that touch of beyond either

**nunocpinto** · 10-30-2014, 09:09 PM

Don't forget Ted Greene: TedGreene.com - The Legacy Of Ted Greene Lives On

**mattymel** · 10-31-2014, 06:45 PM

Rotem Sivan...wow. Def going to have to check him out more.

Bill Evans. Yes, he is very singular. Highly technical and yet totally heart on sleeve. Not always at the same time, but definitely one of the few that can do it. His rhythmic and harmonic approach is very ahead of its time and still highly influential. But so many guys have incorporated that minus what made Bill such an artist. Soul. And a troubled soul at that.

I think Jim Hall was the first to come close in the soul. Those duet records are very deep and really show two simpatico artists.

For me, McLaughlin has always struck me as the anti-Bill Evans. I haven't heard the Evans tribute record, but most of JM's straight ahead stuff leaves me bored to tears. Dazzling technique, but none of the feel or melodicism. I like Live/Evil, and his other stuff with Miles. But not much else.

Been checking some Ralph Towner recently and have to say I can't believe I don't hear people talking about him more. Not sure he has the lyricism of BE, but I can def hear some influence and like what he has going on. Not to mention he pulls off the classical guitar meets jazz WAY better than I have heard anyone else has.

Metheny, he has elements of what Evans had. Missouri Skies has some of that depth.

John Stowell, as stated def shows some influence.

**Cunamara** · 11-02-2014, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by mattymel

Been checking some Ralph Towner recently and have to say I can't believe I don't hear people talking about him more. Not sure he has the lyricism of BE, but I can def hear some influence and like what he has going on. Not to mention he pulls off the classical guitar meets jazz WAY better than I have heard anyone else has. .

Check out Gene Bertoncini if you haven't already. He entered classical guitar from jazz, which IIRC is the opposite of Towner.

I like Towner. I like his solo stuff, I like his writing (Icarus is one of the most evocative things ever written) and I like his ensemble work. Oregon of course is what pops up for me but that was just because it was the first time I heard him.

**yebdox** · 11-06-2014, 01:36 AM

John Stowell and Sid Jacobs - both wonderful players with more harmonic depth than almost anyone I've ever heard. I've studied with both and they are the real deal, not just composing something that sounds deep, but improvising.

I have to force myself to just listen and stop trying to figure out what they are doing, or my mind starts to melt.

Jim Hall for the soul and the cool factor.

Metheny for the bold, fresh expression.

No one guitarist really encompasses all of Evans, but we chose a hard instrument to play!

**monkeyfools** · 11-14-2014, 05:48 PM

Ed Bickert!!! He played guitar like a piano and he also comped for Paul Desmond

**easguitar** · 11-17-2014, 10:33 PM

A cd of possible interest would be "Remembering the Rain: The Music of Bill Evans" by guitarist Stephen D. Anderson-A friend of the late Lenny Breau. He also published the book "Visions" - a tutorial of the LB style.

**rodite135** · 11-22-2014, 05:25 PM

Jim Hall and Ed Bickert. But I think Ed swings a little harder than Bill. No doubt that Evans could swing but he doesn't do it full on all the time. Ed swings all the time. It's Ed's chord work that is like Bill. Jim is to me much close in terms of lyricism. Check out Hall's My Funny Valentine on the Legends of Jazz. His chord work is straight from Evan's. Rhythmic displacement.

**Takemitsu** · 11-22-2014, 06:10 PM

I would say Ed Bickert because of his use of space. But honestly, after circa 1965 there is no way you can have an impact on music the way Bill had just because jazz is not popular anymore. Maybe Pat...

Thanks for the Rotem Sivan cue! Love it

**rodite135** · 11-22-2014, 09:01 PM

In terms of impact I agree with you in Evans contribution. In fact Bill Evans entire approach is amazing. Everybody in the band free from playing time, structure. Everybody kinda improvising at the same time being informed by what is happening on the bandstand at the time. It sounds so whatever today but was a revolution when it happened. To me Bill sounds date and fresh all at the same time. Timeless and beautiful.

**jaco** · 11-22-2014, 09:25 PM

Ralph Towner.

**rodite135** · 11-22-2014, 11:58 PM

So you'll probably go ape but Ralph isn't a jazz guitar player. Doesn't use the vocabulary. Improvises yes. Jazz language, no! Classical player who can improvise, yes!

**mr. beaumont** · 11-23-2014, 12:19 AM

Lol. Go listen to Batik. Or chairoscuro. Or sargasso sea.

Jazz ain't just shoo doo be bop, boo bam.

**rodite135** · 11-23-2014, 01:36 AM

Jazz vocabulary is what I wrote. Not making a judgment. Not talking bop but vocabulary. I like Ralph Tower.

**Jonah** · 11-24-2014, 12:34 AM

Jazz ain't just shoo doo be bop, boo bam.

of course not,,, it's chick-chicky-boom, chick-chicky-boom

**docbop** · 11-26-2014, 01:57 PM

Lenny plays Bill.

**sgcim** · 11-28-2014, 03:19 AM

I don't think it would be any of the fusion guitarists, because Bill Evans hated rock music (except for some Steely Dan), so it would have to be someone like Lenny Breau(who also hated rock music), who made a concerted effort to play BE's voicings, and even comp for himself in a way that resembled the way BE did.

**Cunamara** · 11-28-2014, 06:59 PM

Evans was a huge influence on Lenny Breau's playing, to the extent that it didn't work very well the one time they played together. They were constantly in each other's way. There's a very interesting biography of Lenny called "One Long Tune" which discusses this influence. Chet Atkins was another huge influence on Lenny.

Unfortunately Lenny had little influence on jazz or beyond a few guitarists. His career was highly erratic most of his life due to drug use and not having really ever developed the normal coping skills for dealing with life that most of us develop by the time we're 15. His catalog of recordings is pretty miniscule. Damned shame, he was really a very amazing guitarist.

**sgcim** · 11-28-2014, 08:43 PM

I recalled that LB's bio mentioned that he sat in with BE when BE came to Toronto, but I don't recall that the book said that he got in BE's way.
Did you get that from "One Long Tune"?
Lenny didn't seem to have good luck with pianists; "One Long Tune" mentioned that he auditioned for Oscar Peterson and OP thought he sucked!
OP hired Lorne Lofsky (another Canadian guitarist) later on when LL was still pretty young and didn't sound as good as he does now. LL was playing a black Les Paul back then, and was still playing rock licks.
Maybe OP was bothered by LB's drug use, because he was a better jazz player than LL back then.
LB could sound like a beginner when he was high on heroin, as evidenced by a bootleg recording of that concert that he did in Vancouver where he spent fifteen minutes telling the audience about what a bad day he was having!

**Groyniad** · 11-29-2014, 09:47 AM

great thread! - amazing radio interview with BE - thanks everyone!

first jazz record i ever heard (properly - knowing what i was listening to) was Portrait in Jazz. 25 years later its still pretty much my favourite record.

i strongly agree with Mr B. about BE's driving swinging right hand. its always been what i love most about him. how intense and swinging his lines are. i used to listen to a record - stella by starlight, it may have been called. BE is with Miles, Cannonball and Coltrane - and on every single take (for my money) he blows them all off the stand - like there's just nothing in it. I always imagine the other guys just standing there and listening to him put more time and punch into his first 8 bars than they managed in their whole choruses. totally mind boggling and heavenly. he manages to be ultra-lyrical and totally strong at the same time. i just can't get enough of him.

so - if i was a guitarist who wanted to summon the glorious spirit of bill evans - i'd concentrate on long, flowing, angular-smooth lines. not so much on all the gorgeous chords.

and i think if you just focus on his right hand you'd find the most significant development of be-bop playing since parker etc. (the other guy, for me, is early ornette coleman) - but i digress.