Is There a Jazz Guitar Equivalent to Bill Evans?

[ecj]

For me, the only jazz guitarist who might credibly be said to have that kind of global influence is John McLaughlin. Otherwise, the jazz guitar pond is full of wonderful players but nobody who single-handedly shifts the broader paradigm.

Don't get me wrong -- I love jazz guitar playing as much as anybody else here -- but I challenge you to think of a guitarist who changed the way jazz pianists or tenor-players work.

Metheny.

[Pat Clare]

I haven't heard anyone on guitar who compares to Evans in an apples-to-apples manner. He played a ton of classical music as a youngster and that background was filtered through his jazz playing and his very academic understanding of rootless harmony.

Nobody ever talks about it but my favorite Evans recording is "California Here I Come" with Eddie Gomez and Philly Joe Jones. This was a short-lived but amazing trio. He really swings his butt off on a number of the uptempo tunes in a brilliant, muscular style that's to my ears, more virile and colorful than the Paul Motian/Scott Lafaro Village Vanguard recordings that get all the critical love.

Vic Juris is a wonderful guitarist who can improvise complex and melodic chord melodies and lines that are at least in the conversation.

[henryrobinett]

Metheny.

Yes. For me Metheny was much more global and influence than McLaughlin. When PM entered the scene everyone was trying to play as fast as JM. Metheny and Jaco quieted them all down in one fell swoop. Guitar and electric bass suddenly became melodic instruments.

[ecj]

Yep.

From everything I've ever seen and heard, it seems like the guys who used JM as a model almost ALL ended up as players who can't swing and have no melodicism or taste. You don't hear the influence of JM in any of the younger players anymore, it didn't compel them the way that Metheny has. That horrible brand of fast, frenzied picking with no taste has been "seen" through by the younger generations....
Metheny's influence, in contrast, is EVERYWHERE in players today because it prizes beauty, swing, etc etc.

Are we just talking about guitar players? I hear tons of sax and piano players who still seem like they're striving for the prize of most notes played per chorus.

I think McLaughlin's legacy is more in his band leading and composition skills than his undeniably incredible playing. The number of jazz musicians who were hugely influenced by Shakti is still pretty large. I see a lot of tabla players around and it seems like everyone goes through an "Eastern" phase now. Coltrane obviously inspired McLaughlin to do that, but McLaughlin took it a step further and really learned the Indian music system beyond just taking some exotic scales.

I think Benson is getting short shrift if we're talking about influence, too. Benson and Montgomery before him sort of invented the "smooth jazz" sound. Love it or hate it, they were massively influential in creating that whole genre.

I think Metheny is the guitar player who's had the biggest mark on the sound of modern jazz though. I hear people playing his tunes - James, Song for Bilbao, etc. - in concert all the time, and the number of soloists who pretty shamelessly cop his signature licks is pretty incredible. Metheny always sounded more like a trumpet player than a guitarist to me, anyway, in some ways.

[henryrobinett]

Also Methenys SOUND. More jazz guitarists have tried to cop that reverb, delay and chorusey sound than I can remember of anyone else.

[ecj]

Also Methenys SOUND. More jazz guitarists have tried to cop that reverb, delay and chorusey sound than I can remember of anyone else.

Definitely. Even McLaughlin copied it!

I hear a lot of people copying Metheny's later darker sound now, too. The one he stole from Jim Hall.

[Eric Rowland]

September Fifteenth (dedicated to Bill Evans) - Pat and Lyle

[DonEsteban]

George starts playing "Piano/guitar" at one minute in in this video with Howard Alden.

Must be TV .... I hate the camera operator/director for this clip. Always showing the least important thing but not where the action is ... grrrrr

[3625]

Definitely. Even McLaughlin copied it!

I hear a lot of people copying Metheny's later darker sound now, too. The one he stole from Jim Hall.

I saw him live last Friday - he's got a new tone atm. He was playing his Ibanez signature, but there was an acoustic sound mixed with the humbucker. My guess is that it was some type of internal mic. Only for one song towards the end did he use the humbucker by itself.

[ecj]

I saw him live last Friday - he's got a new tone atm. He was playing his Ibanez signature, but there was an acoustic sound mixed with the humbucker. My guess is that it was some type of internal mic. Only for one song towards the end did he use the humbucker by itself.

Yeah, I've seen some footage of gigs with the new tone. I get why he's changing things - that's kind of what he's all about. That being said, I don't like it.

Was never a huge fan of the early tone, either. My favorite period is Secret Story, 90s, up until the Trio 99>00 records.

[gusgtr]

Check out Lorne Lofsky and his album "Bill ,Please"

[Jazzpunk]

Thanks!!

Haven't checked this out either but may be worth investigating:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bill-Evans.../dp/0634027972



The best thing would be to just pick a tune and start transcribing lines or voicings that catch your ear. I'm not that adept yet at translating piano voicings to guitar but I find any time spent transcribing to be beneficial.

[kmaaj]

Maybe a bit under the radar, because he is known primarily as a classical guitarist, but it sounds to me like Evans influenced Fred Hand's compositional style.

[gggomez]

Rotem Sivan has that classical background:

[henryrobinett]

Very nice. There's also John Stowell.

[West LA Jazz]

Kick me if I just committed heresy by saying this:

The amplified guitar didn't arrive in time to make as prominent an impact on jazz as it did in say.. rock n roll.

Yes the guitar is both a rhythm and lead instrument like the piano (but maybe more limited in terms of voicing capabilities).

That being said, in the Jazz community at large, I never hear our guitar greats (whether old, kind of new, and new......fill in the blanks/pick your fave jazz guitar hero) being mentioned in the same breath or reverence as a Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Monk, Corea, Peterson etc.

And I haven't even gotten to horn players. It seems we are always relegated to the 2nd tier.

Maybe the guitar's significance in the development of jazz was just the time of its arrival and chance/circumstance) etc?

If I'm wrong... please wake me up with a well aimed kick to the seat of the pants! HA.

[henryrobinett]

You're right. But I don't think it has anything to do with the amplified guitar. It has to do with the actual lines and musicality and timbre of the instrument and the players. This had always been my contention and why I always have done much more our of listening to Rollins, Bird, Trane, Garland, Miles, Clifford, Freddue, Herbie, Jarret, Chick, Brecker. . .

[AlsoRan]

Rotem Sivan has that classical background:

That was nice indeed. He even sounded a little like a piano, loved his tone and his lines.

[West LA Jazz]

You're right. But I don't think it has anything to do with the amplified guitar. It has to do with the actual lives and musicality and timbre if the instrument and the players. This had always been my contention and why I always hit do much more our if listening to Rollins, Bird, Trane, Garland, Miles, Clifford, Freddue, Herbie, Jarret, Chick, Brecker. . .

Amen! I was going to add this very point but I'd already said enough to possibly get burned at the stake!

Thanks!!

[2bornot2bop]

The one, and only, Bill Evans.

One of my favorite gems discovered on the 9 disc Bill Evans Verve collection were the Marian McPartland broadcast recordings...now on youtube broken down into a 7 part series.

Near the end of his career Bill appears on Marion McPartland's famed weekly radio broadcast - Piano Jazz.

Marian, a famous player in her own right, at times appeared humbled by Bill's presence.

Here on part 3 below, and for instructional purposes, Marian encourages Bill to break down a tune - Evans uses 'the touch of your lips' as a demonstration.

In part 5 below, Evan's discusses his beginnings, later using 'days of wine and roses' to further a musical example.

[AlsoRan]

That's why we should all have such reverence for Metheny. He is really the first guitar player to have had an impact on jazz as a whole...He can be counted amongst the Corea's and other jazz musicians of the first rank. He is really the first guitarist to have reached that rank...His example will hopefully serve as an inspiration to future guitarists and finally help to end the "second-rate citizen" state of guitarists in jazz.

Richb,

Are you a fan of Bill Evans?

Thanks in advance.

[Cunamara]

Even among pianists there is no one with quite the same weight and influence as Bill Evans. Among sax players there are Bird and Trane, among trumpet players there is Miles. These sorts of pivotal characters- in the arts, in science, in politics, in any field of human endeavor- tend to come along once in several generations.

jazz guitar IMHO has not had that impact because we relegate ourselves to second tier status. We tend to have a second class mentality and think we're supposed to play like other instruments instead of like ourselves. We're supposed to play chords like a piano and solo like a horn player. What is jazz GUITAR supposed to sound like? We can't know that if we're always trying to sound like another instrument.

this is a pet peeve. If I wanted to sound like a piano, I'd play the damned piano. If I wanted to sound like a sax, I'd play a flippin' sax. I love the guitar, I love how it sounds and it's how I want to sound. I am not going to be even remotely apologetic for that. I think that wanting to play like another instrument is barking up the wrong tree. Until we get over thinking ourselves inferior in some way, we'll be treated like that. Listen to Jim Hall with Art Farmer or Sonny Rollins or Paul Desmond- he doesn't play like a piano or a horn. He plays like a guitarist.

[henryrobinett]

You need to chill on this nazi time thing. You are stuck in a metronome. There are Motown tracks that rush. I heard a killing track with Steve Gadd playing live in a Tom Scott record that rushed like mad. But it GROOVED. Jarrett and DeJohnette rushed. So in the fuck what? You're missing the point because you're trying to keep some kind of weird score card. I listened to a Joe Henderson solo today where he made a mistake and landed on the 4th where it clearly should have been the 3rd. I mean so WTF? Jackie McLean played sharp. So?????

[Jonah]

Interesting point...

Guitar and piano have different expressive means.

I think guitarist who would make me feel similarity to Bill Evans' approach should not actually just play piano style, or dense chords with smoothe impressionist voicing...

With Ted Greene I do not hear this similarity. Formally yes maybe, but musical resul it absolutely different for me...

Lenny Breau - he has that subtle gentle feel in his playing together with passion and power that may remind me of Bill ... but his playing is too emotional for me, Bill Evans had much more concentraion of thought and mind.

Metheney? - again to get this impressionistic harmonic sound does not make 'Bill Evans' for me... Metheney is cool but he is so loght-minded to be compared with Bill... he is like a gifted college boy who is curious for everything. I think he will be 80, and will stay the same...
and it all makes his music a bit... occasional to me... a bit like soundtrack for independent American movie (He actually sounded best for me in duo with Haden for whom every note was step to a new place - actuall I would caompare Charlie Haden with Bill if he played guitar)))).

So I would second Jim Hall also - he is different in means, but when I hear him playing I also feel that sence of careful tactful concentration in his music... like his every note is next to nowhere for him... I would say he plays music for the same reason that Bill did it.

And maybe it will sound strange - bu McLaughlin - I am not his fan... but in some of his records I can feel this combination of powerful personality, confidence and musical touch and approach for harmony and muscial language that make me feel like Bill's... not only because he made tribute LP to Bill ... though his Time Remembered record is so different from Bill's approach formally but to me it is the best rendition of Evans on guitar I heard
I would say he is not even guitarist actually...

[2bornot2bop]

Regarding "weight and influence" among pianists, both Oscar Peterson, and McCoy Tyner were and still are revered. And don't count out Keith Jarrett who has always had a strong following of students. Whether the label was fair or not, don't forget that at one time during the 60s piano players dismissed Evans playing as cocktail piano. Given Evans unique and fabulous harmonic approach I always found his critics somewhat unfair. But the criticism of Evans by his critics is part of historical record.

Personally, ive always seen players nominated as best fill in the blank on the level of the Downbeat Polls. Everyone has a favorite.