A note-for-note re-creation of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue

**princeplanet** · 10-29-2014, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

I really think improvisation is easier than learning....

Aw c'mon! I would have though the kind of improvising most here aspire to is way harder than merely rote learning.
This thread has suddenly gone all twilight zone...

**Vladan** · 10-29-2014, 08:13 AM

I said, "once you get a hold of it". It is harder to learn to improvise on higher levels, all different approaches ...,, but once you have at least one device under your belt, it is much easier to apply that one, than to learn new streams of notes. You can get long mileage out of just a lick or two, should you take some time to analyze and apply to different background harmonies. Learning something by heart is much haarder, imo. Probably, that's why they invented sight reading, but I would not know, I can't do it.

**henryrobinett** · 10-29-2014, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

I'm absolutely serious. At what point in my jazz journey am I supposed to be able to appreciate a 2 minute tune stretched out to nearly 10 minutes so everyone can gangbang the harmony? When I was at jazz camp, the afternoon concerts would drrrraaaaaaaaaaagggggg ass because every damned member of the school music department faculty could have a solo. Usually, I'd be halfway asleep . . .

Well duh. You're talking about novices and students at a jazz camp. That shit does get boring. But Bird, Trane, Jarrett, Herbie, Chick, Brecker -- that's when it's art and that's what the novices aspire to.

If you want to hear great singing you don't go to a karaoke bar and then decide you don't like singing based on that experience. Or because you can't singing that singing is bad.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-29-2014, 08:58 AM

I have entered the twilight zone.

**princeplanet** · 10-29-2014, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I have entered the twilight zone.

Phew, thought it was just me there for a minute....

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well duh. You're talking about novices and students at a jazz camp. That shit does get boring. But Bird, Trane, Jarrett, Herbie, Chick, Brecker -- that's when it's art and that's what the novices aspire to.

If you want to hear great singing you don't go to a karaoke bar and then decide you don't like singing based on that experience. Or because you can't singing that singing is bad.

It wasn't the students, it was the actual school jazz department faculty performing for us. I didn't say they were bad or anything, but after the head, I lose interest. At least, if you insist on taking 3x choruses for a solo, do something interesting. This goes back to my story earlier, my decision to "one note per chord" the twelve bar blues was both in respect for and in protest to this ridiculous idea that improvisation is a necessary part of jazz. If I am expected to improvise, might as mock the hell out of it. I call it the "reverse Charlie Parker style", instead of endless note vomit at 200mph, just one note for every measure or two.
No disrespect to anyone who believes otherwise, and I believe its important to be able to play in the moment, but from a listeners perspective, sh*t is boring. Just give me the head, midsection, and the ending and we're good.

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Haha! That's fine, whatever blows yer hair back y'know, but seriously, what are you doing on this forum? This isn't just a room full of "harmony gangbangers", there's enough of us here from all round the world to fill a stadium!...

This is a jazz guitar players forum, not a jazz improvisors forum and I don't believe you need to be an improvisor to be considered a jazz guitarist.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-29-2014, 09:47 AM

Improvising, in jazz, is not just about "taking a solo."

**princeplanet** · 10-29-2014, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

This is a jazz guitar players forum, not a jazz improvisors forum and I don't believe you need to be an improvisor to be considered a jazz guitarist.

er, cool, let me know how that turns out for ya. (deedeedeedah deedeedeedah)....

**ecj** · 10-29-2014, 11:08 AM

Oh boy, another jazz guitar forum thread that ends in people talking about how they don't like jazz.

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by ecj

Oh boy, another jazz guitar forum thread that ends in people talking about how they don't like jazz.

Who said they didn't like jazz?

**ColinO** · 10-29-2014, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

Who said they didn't like jazz?

Without getting into the whole "what is jazz" thing, I thought that everyone would agree that improvisation is a very significant part of what makes jazz...jazz.

**ecj** · 10-29-2014, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

Who said they didn't like jazz?

You.

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by ColinO

Without getting into the whole "what is jazz" thing, I thought that everyone would agree that improvisation is a very significant part of what makes jazz...jazz.

My question is, what exactly is "improvisation"?
Help me, I want to know. Mr. Beaumont-you are an educator, why don't you educate? Isn't improvisation "the process of spontaneously creating fresh melodies over the continuously repeating cycle of chord changes of a tune." (according to apassion4jazz.com)?
Most definitions of "improvisation' as it relates to music seem to say the same thing as the above. The way I see it, one could become a skilled jazz musician without ever having to "improvise" by definition. I mean,if I am comping the chords of a jazz tune, playing the chords as written without deviation, am I not playing jazz? How did "improvisation" get to be such an important skill that defines the genre for most people? Where does that leave folks like myself that don't care for taking solos and making up stuff on the spot, but would just like to play tunes and comp for other musicians?

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

You.

Where?

**ecj** · 10-29-2014, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

Where?

In this thread.

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

In this thread.

Buy some glasses.
Also, instead of snarky comments, you could try actually helping me understand what exactly jazz is (or isn't), since apparently I am not getting it.

**Stevebol** · 10-29-2014, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Jazz is in a very large measure ABOUT improvisation. It doesn't matter what the audience wants or appreciates. That's the ART of it. It's not like classical music. In classical music the primary impetus and art lies in the domain of the composer. It's HIS or HER vision, realized by the conductor and the master musician(s). In jazz it's primarily the vision of the improvisor. The composer is also very important, but truly it's the improvisor. Of course there will always be exceptions. The composer writes the music the will be remembered and serves as the vehicle, but it's the improvisation that makes it jazz and brings the composition to life as jazz.

You can't like country without also liking guitars. You can't like operas without liking singers or those who sing in operatic voice. You can't like metal without also liking power chords and distorted guitars. So you can't like or appreciate jazz without also understanding and enjoying and admiring that it is improvised. It's just the art of what it is.

I haven't heard this KOB thing. The controversy is probably overblown. But what's the point? The original recording was perfection. But it's NOTHING like playing the recording over and over or listening to Stravinsky which is a note for note reproduction of the score. The POINT is improvisation if it's jazz.

There's the 'singer' and the 'song'. In jazz it's the singer and in classical it's the song, basically. The composer is the star in classical.

**ColinO** · 10-29-2014, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

Buy some glasses.
Also, instead of snarky comments, you could try actually helping me understand what exactly jazz is (or isn't), since apparently I am not getting it.

Using the website you quoted earlier, improvisation is a basic component of what jazz is. When you say that all like to listen to are the heads and you don't like listening to or partaking in the improvisation, that can easily be taken to mean you don't like jazz.

You can't say you love ice hockey and at the same time prefer to skip the part where the players are skating.

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/jazz.html

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by ColinO

Using the website you quoted earlier, improvisation is a basic component of what jazz is. When you say that all like to listen to are the heads and you don't like listening to or partaking in the improvisation, that can easily be taken to mean you don't like jazz.

You can't say you love ice hockey and at the same time prefer to skip the part where the players are skating.

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/jazz.html

I don't understand. Look, I didn't grow up listening to jazz or go to college for jazz music. I fell in love with the style mainly from listening to Wes Montgomery and then later on hearing songs I liked on Pandora and whatnot. That was 4 years ago. And over time, I discovered that I really only cared for the main melody, when the solos start, my mind drifts until the main melody comes back in. In fact, when I learn tunes, I don't generally try to work on improvising over them because I know the tune and that's the part I am satisfied with. I just don't understand "improvisation" as its being told to me, I am discovering that I enjoy feeding the other musicians chords and don't have any desire to "take a solo" or whathaveyou. I don't get how that could mean I don't like jazz or that I am not playing jazz music. Not trying to be snarky, I just don't see improvisation as such an important skill, but I am trying to understand it.

**ColinO** · 10-29-2014, 12:59 PM

Do you understand that skating is an important skill in order to play ice hockey?

**princeplanet** · 10-29-2014, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

I am discovering that I enjoy feeding the other musicians chords and don't have any desire to "take a solo" or whathaveyou.

I think you're freaking a few of us out, all of us here are interested in improvisation, even the compers who "feed" the other musicians as you put it. To really "feed" them means to react to them, and that means to improv the comping! You think Wes comped any 2 choruses the same way, ever?

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by ColinO

Do you understand that skating is an important skill in order to play ice hockey?

Of course, but in regards to playing jazz music, I have this Duke Ellington songbook next to me, If I play I Let A song Go Out of My Heart, am I not playing jazz? I read the song, comp the chords and play the melody. In a band situation, I wold be comping the chords behind the singer/horn player/whathaveyou. How does improvisation factor into this situation from my end?

**Broyale** · 10-29-2014, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I think you're freaking a few of us out, all of us here are interested in improvisation, even the compers who "feed" the other musicians as you put it. To really "feed" them means to react to them, and that means to improv the comping! You think Wes comped any 2 choruses the same way, ever?

Why would comping 2 choruses the same way be looked down upon, though? I wouldn't think less of a player like Wes if he had.

**princeplanet** · 10-29-2014, 01:34 PM

Dude, I'm having a hard time believing that you're not putting us on, you're obviously young and maybe coming across from playing pop/rock? That might explain your take on things... We're obviously into improv here. Coming in here and declaring that you feel improv is not important is just like barging into a chess club, standing on a table and yelling out loudly for every one to hear that they should be playing checkers instead!

That's exactly how you're coming across, ya dig?