Where did Pat Metheny get his style from?

**DaveF** · 01-21-2014, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Man I'm too lazy to find it now, but I did read a pretty long interview where he talked about the Wes influence, how he departed from it at an early age, but how trumpet players were a big influence on him, and how he 'hears' lines as a trumpet (at least at the time of the interview.)

He has a pretty unique vocabulary to my ears, at least among the guitar gods. The legato, the articulation, enclosures, metronomic accuracy, rhythmic displacement...he's not my favorite player (probably because I've listened to him too much at this point1) but even just his rhythmic conception and the fact that he can execute it so flawlessly is kind of mind boggling, nevermind his harmonic and melodic sense, his compositions, etc.

I would like to hear more of his playing in the new cats on the block but I think you don't because he doesn't play standards.

**JakeAcci** · 01-21-2014, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by DaveF

I would like to hear more of his playing in the new cats on the block

Why?

**janepaints** · 01-22-2014, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Pat Clare

Ormette Coleman concept is an acknoweded influence.

YES! Especially the earliest OC combo recordings (i.e. the 2 Contemporary LP's and the Atlantic debut LP), which had lots of the plainsong-aleatory-'shape note'-'folk melody' elements heard in PM's playing & composing.

**DaveF** · 01-23-2014, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Why?

Because his playing sounds better to me and all vocabulary of any player comes from predecessors.

**ecj** · 01-23-2014, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by DaveF

Because his playing sounds better to me and all vocabulary of any player comes from predecessors.

I feel like most of the new guys out there have a ton of Metheny in their sound. Not just guitar players, either. I'm hearing a lot of his "hyper-melodic" licks popping out in sax solos, too.

Adam Rogers sometimes sounds shockingly similar to Pat. Rosenwinkel less so, but it's still there.

**targuit** · 01-23-2014, 09:46 AM

I always enjoyed Pat Metheny and his compositions. But lately, I have to admit I'm a bit Metheny-ed-out. I think it is because of his so consistent use of delay and chorusing in his sound. One reason that his style tends to get a bit blurry. I long to hear him just play acoustically. I think his musical ancestry would be easier to trace.

Jay

**Ric Lee** · 01-23-2014, 09:57 AM

what a fun little album. Wish they would play this on my local "faux-jazz" station instead of that drivel they usually play. If you're going to play R&B just play good R&B and not drivel that sounds like 3 stretched out chords and half a chorus for 4 minutes.

**Nabil B** · 01-23-2014, 12:43 PM

It is very clear to me that Metheny developed a style of his own, which is not in the continuum of the jazz tradition.
Personally, I'm not a fan of his soloing. I find it repetitive and not melodic enough. IMHO, what he does best is composing : The Bright Size Life album is one of my favorites.

**Jerzy** · 01-23-2014, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

It is very clear to me that Metheny developed a style of his own, which is not in the continuum of the jazz tradition.
Personally, I'm not a fan of his soloing. I find it repetitive and not melodic enough. IMHO, what he does best is composing : The Bright Size Life album is one of my favorites.

not melodic enough???

**brightsize** · 01-23-2014, 01:26 PM

I think Metheny has an intuitive understanding of how people listen to music. He can play super-technical, insanely fast, complex stuff with impressive accuracy. Nevertheless, he spends most of his time making music that's accessible as well as moving and sophisticated.

Ultimately I think that what makes Pat special is the same thing that makes all of the most talented musicians special -- he's got an ear and a mind that come around only once in a very long while.

**DaveF** · 01-24-2014, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

I find it repetitive and not melodic enough.

I can't think of a more melodic player in the universe.

**DaveF** · 01-24-2014, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by brightsize

I think Metheny has an intuitive understanding of how people listen to music. He can play super-technical, insanely fast, complex stuff with impressive accuracy. Nevertheless, he spends most of his time making music that's accessible as well as moving and sophisticated.

I can't agree more, he is one of a handful of jazz musicians that can please the layman and the connoisseur. That's how it should be. As a side note, Bill Evans said he equally values the opinion of the layman and the connoisseur.

Another side note, I love Diana Krall, she's not the best improviser out there and not the best singer out there but she's accessible without being smooth jazz (Please note I'm not painting her with the same brush as Pat though, Pat's a rare genius).

**DaveF** · 01-24-2014, 03:19 AM

Someone on this forum once said that Pat composes the most deeply emotional and spiritual music. I totally relate to that. I feel the same way about JS Bach. I am so deeply moved by pieces like 'Antonia', 'San Lorenzo' and 'Letter From Home' to name but a few. But as not to derail the thread too much, his improvisational style appeals to me as much as his compositional style.

**ecj** · 01-24-2014, 03:49 PM

Where did Pat get it from?

I'd say that's where a significant chunk came from.

Goodrick in Burton's band for a lot of the rest of his soloing style. Then probably mix in all of the Brazilian/Latin stuff mentioned for his writing.

Add a dash of his own unique vision.

**jzucker** · 01-24-2014, 04:22 PM

i think there is what pat says and what he does. He says he was heavily influenced by Wes but to me his playing has very little of wes' time feel and further evidence is the way he approaches turnarounds and V-I transitions. Wes had a very post-bop like approach to playing over 5-1 transitions, and using a lot of 1/2 whole dim and 7th mode of melodic minor (of course, wes didn't think of it like this). He tended to play lines that landed on the 3rd b9 of the dom7 chord on the strong parts of the beat when transitioning up a 4th from a V-I progression.

Pat's approach to playing over these types of chords is very different. Not that he can't or doesn't use these tones but if you listen to the way he plays over these progressions it's just very different. He definitely comes from a less bop oriented approach to playing over the changes. I hear more ornette and hall than bird and wes in his playing.

I suspect he dissected Jim Hall Live and whatever else he could find with Jim because that's what I hear when I hear his playing.

**ecj** · 01-24-2014, 05:30 PM

I love that enormous Jim Hall tone. It just fills up the sonic space. I feel like Metheny has moved more and more towards that over his career. Was never a big fan of the really warbly chorused-out early Metheny sound, but I really dig the way he sounds on records like Trio 99 > 00.

**mikeSF** · 01-28-2014, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by TrakaVobla

I think that Toninho Horta could be one of the influences.

definitely. have heard Horta before and he is amazing. some parts of this record had me doing a double take as I hear the influence on PM (ex: at 19:55)...in a good way.

**DaveF** · 01-28-2014, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by mikeSF

definitely. have heard Horta before and he is amazing. some parts of this record had me doing a double take as I hear the influence on PM (ex: at 19:55)...in a good way.

I know it's quite incredible!

**TrakaVobla** · 01-29-2014, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by mikeSF

definitely. have heard Horta before and he is amazing. some parts of this record had me doing a double take as I hear the influence on PM (ex: at 19:55)...in a good way.

It`s actually Metheny, he played on Prato Freito and Manuel, o Audaz.

**mikeSF** · 01-31-2014, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by TrakaVobla

It`s actually Metheny, he played on Prato Freito and Manuel, o Audaz.

ha! what d'ya know, thanks.

**Eric Rowland** · 01-31-2014, 08:07 PM

Didn't Pat have a pad in Rio de Janiero? Talk about immersion into Brazilian music and culture, not to mention the beach and the women.

**Jazzism** · 01-31-2014, 09:09 PM

I believe Pat was briefly married to a Brazilian woman.

**Cunamara** · 02-02-2014, 06:54 PM

The thing about genius players- in terms of "genius" being linguistically related to "generating" as in creating something new- is that they seem to be self-creating. Their musical identity becomes so strong that they are just themselves. They don't really sound like anyone else and even though they point to influences, they don't sound like those influences. Django, Charlie Christian, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery, George Van Eps and Pat Metheny have managed this just to pick some guitarists who've achieved this IMHO.

That said, I also admit that a lot of Pat's stuff just makes me rather weary; I liked his first few PMG albums but after roughly Offramp I haven't liked much if any of PMG. I have liked some of his trio recordings and other things (his playing on Joshua Redman's "The Wish," for example) quite a lot. I have heard only a bit of the Unity Band stuff and thus far it hasn't grabbed me. I like his playing best when his rhythm section swings.