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I agree Jazzpunk...and then you don't like something and people tell you "you just can't hear it, man."
It's okay not to like something...I just get miffed when people invent B.s. reasons to validate their dislike...
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07-03-2013 09:50 PM
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Her creativity is her strongest point but she lacks serious guitar technique & good melodic ideas, and artistic maturity from everything I've heard of her, on this thread and the infamous other one. To me guitar technique and a strong melodic concept is an important part of the picture. You can play very atonal / avant-garde stuff and still have it be melodic, and certainly performed with a high level of skill, in addition to being intellectually interesting. I'll be interested in seeing what she is doing 20 years from now, but for me she is like a wine that hasn't been aged properly yet, and thus tastes bad. But 20 years from now she might be the finest wine available. She's got a lot to work on though. I hate to turn this into a gender debate, but I think if a guy was doing the exact same thing, nobody would even care. She's not playing anything that hasn't already been done, and she doesn't have guitar technique to make her stand out, even among women. I've actually heard this type of music before, many times, played by men, and none of them ever amounted to anything or ever got much attention.
Last edited by Guitarzen; 07-04-2013 at 02:27 AM.
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When folks talk this kind of smack, I'm always, always interested to hear them play....to hear how they sound in comparison to the individual/s they so harshly judge. But in case after case they never post their s###, and instead continue to pontificate. I would love to hear your chops Guitarzen. And then judge how YOU measure up.
Last edited by Jzzr; 07-04-2013 at 10:07 AM.
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Well, I ..... but I'm just an old fart, so it's very likely just me. I didn't like Mingus' music either when I was young - now I do. Just give me another 50 years and I'll like this too.
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People need to reign in their emotions a little bit and address the contents of posts specifically point by point.
Labeling Guitarzen's post a "troll post" is only accurate in the sense that he most likely knew the reaction he'd get.
I do, however, sense that he believes his points have merit.
The gender thing? Anyone who believes that MH's career hasn't been affected by her gender is naive. It's the world we live in. I don't know that there's any point in discussing it though.
The chops thing? Clearly, she's no Bireli Lagrene but, speaking for myself, that level of technical expertise isn't required for me to enjoy the output of an artist. In fact, when I sense that technique is driving the bus a little too much, it's a turn-off for me.
Where technique or the lack of comes into play: Is her material suffering at all due to any lack in her ability to play what she's hearing accurately? This is kind of a tough call - I would characterize the majority of what I've heard from her as being rather stiff / choppy but her music has a lot of written parts that contain odd grouping - even "drag triplets" that are going to have that "going against the time" feel, so it's a bit hard to judge since a lot of this effect is built into her music, and intentional.
For me, time / time-feel is a huge factor in how I perceive music, so much so that there are very well regarded artists that I find completely unlistenable due to what I feel are deficiencies in that area. She's not one of them. She however, has never touched that part of me that kind of goes "Aaah" when I hear someone play a line with a beautiful trajectory, or just what I perceive to be beautiful time.
I was wondering who I could compare her to, someone who has some similarities in composition and style and I came up with Liberty Ellman, who I'd say is quite influenced by Henry Threadgill. His music has a lot of parts that have that "odd groupings superimposed" kind of feel but I must say that I enjoy LE's music quite a bit more, as he can turn around and play stuff with really nice time and integrate it all together into a great package.
Your time-feel is kind of your face, it's a big part of who you are as a musician. I like what Mary Halvorson is doing, and if her time-feel is intentional and she's in control, then she should go on with her bad self!
Did I veer off course? (Still waking up)
Don't be to hard on Guitarzen, I think he's just calling it as he sees it. I'd be interested in checking out her development in 20 years as well, but I guess I could say that about anyone I liked...
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I enjoy listening to artists with amazing technique but I don't think technique ever trumps the feat of creating music that people connect with emotionally. Like her or not, she's obviously accomplished this to some degree.
Originally Posted by Guitarzen
Last edited by Jazzpunk; 07-04-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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I enjoyed the tiny desk concert a lot. Her compositions are very cool, and pleasant to listen to. Based on some comments I expected something a lot more out there. I'm not going to defend avant-garde, because it doesn't need to be defended. Like it or not, it will always be linked to jazz, it's what it grew out of, and for most part musicians involved have some degree of jazz background.
I always though it was strange when someone requires 'serious chops' as part of their listening experience, it's like a spectator sport approach to music appreciation.
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Finally got some time on the holiday to check out the clip. Thanks for posting it. Beautiful ensemble playing. Trumpeter is exquisite. Love her comping and sound she has on that archtop. Haven't got anything else by her besides the superb "Dragon's Head" but I'll probably check out more of her stuff. Don't know what all the negative BS is about. Check out her stuff with Anthony Braxton's quartet--"Live in Moscow" et al. Originally Posted by bopandroll
Last edited by whatswisdom; 07-05-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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no. avant-garde has much earlier roots in academic ("classical") music. Originally Posted by Sphere
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Originally Posted by randalljazz
+1
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Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler... I don't hear it. An influence, yes, but to me their roots point to the tradition of african-american music, not academia. Originally Posted by randalljazz
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I'm not sure whether you're thinking Mary's group is coming out of the tradition of african-american music or not (not sure if the "they" you're referring to is "Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, Albert Ayler" or Mary's group...also not sure what the "it" is that you don't hear....sorry... Originally Posted by Sphere
I don't think that labels are so important here, but as far as Mary's group, harmonically, most all of it has roots in classical music. Besides the harmonic aspect, I can pick out bits & pieces of stuff that might have it's roots in african-american music (more by way of rock maybe?) but not to the extent that I hear in say, Ornette's music, which is obviously rooted in African-American / jazz...
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I was responding to a comment regarding avant-garde in general. Avant-garde in reference to collective improvisation, whether you want to call it free-jazz, avant-garde jazz, or just improv. Mary's music might not be what I'd call 'black music', but to me this approach to performance and music-making has more in common with Braxton than Penderecki. Originally Posted by Spirit59
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Yeah, do people really not hear "jazz" in Mary's stuff? That's like saying you don't hear Rock and Roll in Sonic Youth...
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Hi Jeff, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I dunno....I don't really hear much. I think I said something earlier like, if you were to switch out the instrumentation to violins, vilolas & cellos, leaving the music intact (note choice, rhythm), would people hear so much jazz in the music?
I mean, the harmony could all be coming from classical music. The rhythm as well - there's odd groupings but it's all straight.
I heard a few gestures in there, I think mostly from the saxophonist - he's influenced by players who are associated with jazz...
I think the biggest component of the music that would make most people think "jazz", is the harmony / note-choice, which most people have heard by way of jazz, but that really is coming from 20th century classical...
Doesn't matter though...
Back for a minute to Mary's technique:
She sure doesn't lack technique when it comes to rapidly changing twisted, knuckle-busting chords! She has cultivated technique where she requires it!
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Yeah, I think in this context, she is clearly playing with jazz musicians. But. as for her music and playing.....
In general, if her playing can be considered jazz, then we can reduce jazz to improvisation. It's not about about adhering to formulas a la straightjacket. To me, the most important quality of why I love jazz is its rhythmic quality. Which she generally lacks. Unless I'm missing something. Any links to her swinging?
Most good avant guard players I've seen around town come from the jazz background, and have no problem playing straight ahead.
My guess is that she went straight to her music (however you want to classify it) without learning to play jazz. Like most kids who pick up a guitar these days.
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I dunno either...I hear plenty of blues in the trumpeter and the drummer swings, even takes a nice jazz drum solo at about 8 minutes...
what would Blue in Green from Kind of Blue sound like performed by a string quartet+piano?
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True dat. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
well....even though it's a ballad, there's a certain something in the time-feel (something akin to swing?) that makes me know it's jazz... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by NSJ
That's the thing - they have a big palette, and can draw from it at will to go anywhere... someone like David Binney - his writing is pretty contemporary, with everything in the pot, he'll segue into a very "avant-sounding" section, much like we might hear in Mary's music, but it's only one facet of what's he working out of.
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