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We all love Wes here, but outside of the Jazz community, Wes is still little known... The Rock or Blues players of the 60's are all very well known, there are books, documentaries, famous stories etc that keep the mythology alive for people like Hendrix, Page, Clapton, Garcia, Zappa etc. How many accounts have you seen, heard or read from people who remember seeing Hendrix? Lots I bet...
So why is it so hard to find similar material regarding Wes? Surely people were stupefied when they saw him live, or even when they heard the records? What did other Jazz guitarists make of Wes? Does anyone know of a source of people's recollections of Wes? There seems to be far more about Django or even C. Christian. Every rock guitar player and his / her dog knows about Django, but I've met many guitarists who have never heard of Wes Montgomery!
In this age, there is no excuse not to catch up to and be aware of this extraordinary musician. Is there a general lack of information, anecdotes, footage etc? Geez, there wasn't much on Robert Johnson either, and he's even better known than Wes. Is it about "mythology"? Did Wes blow his chance of immortality with his late period "smooth pop" records? Maybe it's like how George Foreman once put it- "Boxing is like Jazz, the better it gets, the less people want to know about it..."
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06-23-2013 02:09 PM
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Wes was unknown til the last 10 years of his life. He he had a day job in Indy as a factory worker. Not exactly NYC at the Vanguard or the "Jazz Capitol of the World".
Then he was with Riverside til 63. He was probably every bit as known as other players at the time. Like Jimmy Smith. I'm sure all the good players knew each other.
But given the Rock and roll explosion that don't add up to much, as far as the general public is concerned.
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The minds silent war against the corrosive force of public opinion! Wes is well known to those that matter......L..
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Appreciating good music takes knowledge and that takes work. Jazz is unpopular compared with Rock for the same reason Art films are unpopular as compared with romantic comedies or action flicks. I'm sure that, if we are honest, there are areas of art which we elect not to do the work necessary to really understand and appreciate the form so we tend to Robert Bateman over Picasso and Tarantino over Kieslowski...pick your poison.
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But by that logic, then Parker, Coltrane, Monk, Miles etc should be similarly unheard of, no?
Originally Posted by ColinO
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With the exception of Miles, they basically are. And even with Miles, find a hundred people on the street and ask them to name a Miles tune - I bet no more than 3 would be able to. Those three would likely be the only ones who know who the others are that you named.
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Everyone has heard of Beethoven, Mozart, Bach etc, despite 3/100 being able to name pieces. Coming back to Django, most rock guys know of him, they like a good story. Same with Robert Johnson. In fact, if we restrict this discussion to what rock/pop guitarists are aware of (and lord knows there are plenty of those), I would venture they do indeed know of Coltrane, Miles, Bird, Monk, Mingus etc , and it's probably because of their "stories". Their larger than life personas were colourful enough to, in addition to their talent and achievements, make them household names in the land of Rock/Pop.
Maybe Wes was just too much of an all round "nice guy" to be a hero to rock'n'rollers. A travesty, especially when you consider his guitar playing is probably more "bad ass" than, well, any one else! - in any style..... I once read a GP article where Van Halen (the poodle haired 80's pop metal guy) said that the best guitar players took risks, and could tumble down the stairs yet land on their feet, he cited Clapton as a supreme example. In fact, around the time Wes died, "Clapton is GOD" was the cry. All very well to fall down a coupla pentatonic steps and land on your feet, but Wes could fall down whole mountains and land his big toe on a dime!
........
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Compared to Pop stars in general all of them are pretty unheard of. Miles is a bit more known, but he was a public person acting, boxing, marrying and famous actress, winning of Playboy best dressed a couple times. All non-music things. Parker had a movie and media made him the cliche drug addicted Jazz musician. Originally Posted by princeplanet
You don't seem to understand the masses and what and why they follow what they do.
Smooth Jazz players are more well known today than Wes et al, why they understand the masses and cater to them. They made a decision to cater to the public and have the small slice of the market.
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Originally Posted by docbop
I work in the music industry, so I unfortunately understand all too well, just refuse to accept.....
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Then you should appreciate that Jazz not being mainstream keeps it from being polluted and formalized by the industry. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I can just talk about my own experience. I was a rock guy and still really enjoy that style along with jazz which I have only really gotten to know a little about more recently. As a rock guy, the only jazz musicians that I was aware of were Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, Les Paul and George Benson. I had heard of Miles Davis but had no idea who Charlie Parker, Monk, Coltrane, etc were. Maybe you are right and there are a lot of rock dudes out there talking about Django and Robert Johnson but the guys I was hanging with at the time would have had no idea who those guys were.
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A tragic story colors our perception of an artist's work. That's just the way it is...It's better to burn out than to fade away, right?
(I wrote an article about that in relation to infectious diseases btw...Contagious Rhythm: Infectious Diseases of 20th Century Musicians)
That said, what really matters is innovation. Wes and Jimi changed the vocabulary for the guitar in a way that their peers didn't. Charlie Parker and Miles and Coltrane did the same for jazz. I think anybody who appreciates jazz will understand the importance of Wes.
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I analogue Wes to Clifford Brown. How many remember Clifford? Too few.
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I remember Clifford.... (sorry) Originally Posted by NSJ
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Again, appreciate, but can't accept. I want Jazz to get it's due. I'd like it to be bigger than hiphop! (Well, I can dream can't I?) Originally Posted by docbop
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But, Wes Montgomery was the tallest.
Wes Montgomery: height 6ft 4
Paul McCartney height: 5ft 11
John Lennon's height: 5 ft 10
George Harrison's height: 5 ft 10
Ringo Starr's height: 5 ft 6
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hehe, nice one, but seriously, was Wes that tall? He coulda played basketball back then! Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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If jazz wants to be bigger than Hip-hop it will have to come up with something new, instead of hanging around in the 50s and 60s! But Hey! that's what we like, isn't it?......
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Beat me to it... Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Jazz has left the 50s and 60 behind and is thriving - lotsa new blood. Originally Posted by larry graves
But it's not going to come and find you...
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Originally Posted by larry graves
The only times Jazz has a following with the masses is when its danceable. There are artists today trying to bring Hiphop elements in to Jazz like Robert Glasper. People want simple music/lyric that they don't have to think to understand hence Pop, Rock, and Country.
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Just a nod to the original post and a curiosity question. I think the funny thing is that Wes's music will last longer than the Beatles at least to musicians.
Funny question. Has anyone ever noted the striking similarity between the chord progression of Georgia On My Mind and Yesterday? I bring this tangential question up because I associate Wes with interpretations of some Beatles tunes.
Georgia (F), (Em7b5) Georgia (A7aug), the .....(Dm7) (Dm7/C) (G7/B) (Bb7/E) just an (Am7) ol', (Am7/G) sweet (D7) song.... (Hoagy Carmichael)
Yesterday (F), Em7b5) all my (A7aug) troubles seemed so (Dm7) far away.(Dm7/C) (Bbma7) now it ....[here it changes to C7]. (Paul McCartney)
The melodies are different, but that chord progression looks so similar.
Jay
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There are only 12 notes in Western music and hundreds of years of music do many songs have the same chord progression and many times it is intentional. Jazz musicians work on playing "Rhythm Changes" why because so many tunes are based on them. Charlie Parker and others wanted to use progression from Standards but avoid the royalties, being the chords was main thing they were interested in they took the chords and wrote new melodies. Chord progressions can't be copyrighted. Originally Posted by targuit
The melodies are different, but that chord progression looks so similar.
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That's a strong statement, that has essentially already been proven wrong by history. Don't get me wrong, I love Wes. But aside from the guitarists, he's been a fairly minor figure, as far as major jazz figures go. Ask yourself - how many sax, trumpet, or piano players have been influenced by Wes Montgomery? Personally, I can't think of any, but I'd be interested to hear otherwise. Now conversely, how many jazz guitar players have been influenced by Parker, Miles, Coltrane, Monk, McCoy Tyner or Bill Evans? Probably most. Originally Posted by targuit
Like it or not, the Beatles' influence extended in every direction - they were both a cultural, and an artistic phenomenon. I'd venture to say that there are no musicians who came after the Beatles, who haven't been influenced by them to some extent, directly or indirectly. I state this as someone who's not a Beatles fanatic, and hardly ever listens to them - but it helps to be in tune with reality.
Besides, they left a legacy of extremely well crafted and often very sophisticated pop songs - kinda like the tin pan alley authors.
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Wes was a whole lot bigger than the Beatles in my household when I was a kid. There were some Beatles tunes that I enjoyed by Wes, Sergio Mendes, and Freddie Hubbard way back when, and in some cases I didn't hear the original versions until I was an adult. And I was usually disappointed. I'm a Beatles fan, but I used to think that they should have written the tunes and then hand them over immediately to jazz musicians, LOL.
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