-
On of our distinguished members recently stated his belief that most people can learn to play very fast if they would just do the work and put in the time.
This made me wonder about the Jazz Greats, such as Jim Hall, who was not known for ripping it up like a Pat Martino regularly does
I assume the Greats all had the sufficient time to practice, so is it safe to assume that they just did not want to play rapid 16th and 32nd notes, or could it be they found out that they could not?
Not trying to start another "verbal firefight." I just think genetics prevents many from even having the possibility of playing at the highest speeds - analogous to track runners and their attainable top speeds.
-
05-26-2013 03:19 PM
-
I think it's possible that people have lower ceilings than others. I think it's also a question of priorities and teaching methods. There weren't a lot of instructional material out there when Jim Hall was coming up. Everyone was kind of doing it themselves, and it's likely that some people stumbled on things that "worked" while others did not.
I've read in interviews that Hall thought he didn't have the ability to develop technique so he just focused on harmonic issues instead.
I think probably anyone can get to the point where they can handle tempos up to 300 bpm if they're willing to put in the work and they have good instruction.
-
Jim can play faster than most folks think, but his environment early on in his career dictated his path and where he'd have to focus his energies...the greats are still humans...they can't do it all. You'll likely find those of the greats you come across who can't play fast had a few things in common: being involved in music at young age that required some heavy things from the player--but not necessarily speed...and that they developed an original voice/concept early on that made them unique and were able to play in environments that fostered it.
Environment can't be stressed enough...Jim Hall is born ten years earlier in NYC, and maybe he becomes a burner...or maybe we never hear of Jim Hall.
Or my short answer: the greats who can't play fast got damn good at something else.
Now, can everybody play fast? Well, i don't have the time to do that experiment...but I do know that if speed is something you haven't worked on, you CAN play fast-ER if you took time to focus on it.
-
A great musician is great because he plays just the way the music has to be played.
-
There are a lot of fast players, and with horn players playing high notes is another target for some. I think to use a term from Mo Better Blues it just a "dick thing" like fast cars, pumping iron, money and other things treated as a competition. Also tends to be a young thing. I think the people we call the Greats are so because of WHAT they played whether it was blazing or simmering. Look at Miles one of the greatest improvisors of all time he had his fast period, but what is he more known for the space he could put between notes, then drop in just the perfect note. Look at Coltrane one of the great melody player and improvisers but when he started moving into his "sheets of sound" period he started losing fans. Fast, medium, or slow its still about rhythms and notes.
My issues with all the focus on speed is players who use it either as a way to hide, as Howard Roberts said "any note works if you play it fast enough". Then the players who use speed as a gimmick to lure in people whose only focus is chops or to grab audience attention when their notes aren't holding them.
For me if a player is fast or slow as long as they have something to musically say.
Okay now I'll put my asbesto underwear on. <grin>
-
Although I can never get anybody to agree with me on this point, I think Jim Hall had pretty good speed. Like all players with great musical taste and impeccable time, phrasing, and articulation, it can be quite deceiving how fast he is. At least this is what I found when I did a few transcriptions and tried to bring them up to tempo. Hall himself says he doesn't have great chops, which I think perpetuates the impression that he doesn't have speed. But he (and P. Bernstein, grant green, etc) have a lot more speed available than your random competent jazz guitarist, even if they don't display it that much.
As far as whether some could never get up to Martino/Benson-speed no matter how hard they try, I think that is probably true, although I can never bring myself to work on picking technique enough to know for sure. I would guess that practicing a lot at fast tempi when you are young, with proper technique, is what it takes to become fast, and that after a certain age, you won't be able to gain much beyond what you have.
There are also nuances, in the sense that some players *can* play at a certain tempo (eg continuous 8th notes at 320 or more) cleanly without dropping notes, but they sound frantic or choppy or have poor tone when they do, while others can remain clear and relaxed at faster tempos, so there is more to it than just whether one can play at a certain speed.
-
Here is a clip of Jim w/ Sonny playing at a pretty bright tempo:
He doesn't play the kind of running lines that Pat Martino or say, Tal Farlow might play, but he does play some pretty quick single note lines, followed by chord stuff. Interesting how different players handle fast tempos.
Matt
-
With respect, I'm going to disagree with the premise that "The greats didn't play fast." There have always been speedsters and there have always been players who focus elsewhere. Ever hear that Les Paul and Nat Cole "Jazz at the Philharmonic" record? Les Paul didn't need to speed up the tape-deck to nail a tempo!
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Again, I'm going to respectfully disagree. Like Yogi Berra said, "Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." Originally Posted by AlsoRan
The biggest thing about playing fast is that, like everything else in jazz, you've got to hear it to mean it. If you're listening fast and thinking fast you'll find a way to play fast -- maybe not Mahavishnu fast, but enough that people will think you're a speedy player.
Next . . .
-
Boy, I don't know Matt, it sounds like he's barely hanging onto the tempo when he's going for 8th notes to me. I like Jim Hall a lot, but he's at his weakest when he tries to play fast lines. A lot of the chordal stuff he does during the solo is cool, but I don't hear a single 8th note line that lasts longer than 2 or 3 beats and is in time. Originally Posted by MattC
Last edited by ecj; 05-26-2013 at 05:18 PM. Reason: deleted the double vid quote
-
Part of the question to me is
can you actually improvise, while playing fast. I don't think many people can.
lots of people can play fast. on every instrument, and every kind of music. bluegrass, (wow), rock shredders, jazz guys,
not many people can actually construct a meaningful new melody while playing fast. Not many people can think that fast.
Charlie Parker, was probably a genius.
I would guess that if you listen to most of the people posting here, stuff played at high speeds, one solo , is pretty much the same as the one before it, and the one after it.
-
For mere mortals, the chops needed to burn require constant high maintenance. Unless you get the chance to gig constantly and use your speed, it means lots of time in the woodshed to keep those speed chops up. Like sight reading, it's a case of "use it, or lose it". I can probably only play 65% as fast as I could 10 years ago. However, I am probably 300% more harmonically and rhythmically sophisticated than I was 10 years ago...so I can say more with less, now.
I think speed is just one of the many, many colors available to us while improvising and some of us do not prioritize the same way others may, it's about the personal choices we make for our voices. I don't want to play any faster than I can think, because I'll resort to the autopilot of licks and scales, but that's my choice, some guys make speed a major part of their voice and sound awesome. It's all good.
On a personal note, fast players on any instrument that play wall to wall 8ths or 16ths just wear me right out after about 15-20 minutes of listening to them. Guys who use more variety get a lot more listening time from me.
-
Hall played pretty fast on that tune and on You'd Be So Nice To Come Home To in the 70s. others too.
Of course, its with hammer-ons and pull-offs.
that's what many players have to rely on when playing fast. its still fast, but a fast right hand sounds faster because its so much more punctuated, percussive, strong, etc. it makes a much bigger impression on the listener, doesn't it?
sometimes all that slurring sounds like... cheating.
I tend to agree with Jeff above, but find Henry's claim interesting nonetheless.Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-26-2013 at 08:30 PM.
-
I don't really get the fascination with picking every note...guitar players bitch about wanting to sound like a horn, and then they turn around and do the least horn like thing possible.
When will guitar players wise up and realize our instrument can do piano stuff and horn stuff and that the guitar is superior to all instruments...when played like a guitar?
And before I get flamed, I patially believe that, I'm partially starting shit, and partially have had a "few" beers since I started smoking a pork shoulder this morning...
-
This thread again...
Well Jim stated in interviews that early on he was saddened that he could not play blazing lines at burnin' tempos like Tal Farlow, but that he later settled with it and used his limitations to his advantage.
I love Jims playing. Part of what reels me in is his lyricism and beautiful statements in the solos.
I've watched clinic videos and paid close attention to his right hand. He has a stiff picking technique and does the flexible thumb and first finger joint thing.
Unless you keep those fingers stiff, it will fall apart up to tempo. Picking comes from the wrist.
I don't mean to talk bad about Jim by stating that, quite the contrary. I'm glad he picks the way that he does because it makes him into the player he is. I wouldn't want to listen to a burnin' Jim Hall, I've got Benson, Bireli and Martino for that
-
I'll take the Benson and Martino...I think Bireli is absolute slop on electric. Unlistenable.
Now, put a Selmer in his hands...i dunno what it is with the hot club cats...the Ferre brothers are some of my absolute favorites, but when they pick up their Gibsons it sounds like Saturday afternoon at Guitar Center.
As for Hall, he could play fast enough to hang, and his harmonic concept is probably still futuristic. Sonny, who knows a thing or two about guitarists, didn't hire him to burn...this is the man that brought the world Bobby Broom too, the most underrated guitarist in jazz history. Bobby can do it all, he mnows the history and doesn't stare backwards.
I'm getting off topic, but Jim Hall, Lee Konitz, Sonny Rollins and a very small contingent of others are the true link between the past and present, and they aren't getting any younger...might be time to recognize them a bit more.
-
Damn right, fellow Jeff.
-
imawasted an u all suck an and whine 4 not playin fast enough. imthafastes!!!!!!!!
-
yep - I dug AlsoRan's OP and get his point/question, but I can see where this is probably going to go/has partly gone... Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
Re: OP/genetics: That's definitely a factor, no doubt. Some people have faster reflexes and that's fact. My teacher/friend has absolutely amazing chops and he attained them very early on in his playing. I know him really well, and have noticed his reflexes and co-ordination in other contexts outside of guitar and they're better than mine IMO.
I've always had a quick left hand, but right hand picking was never effortless for me (I'm pre-dominantly left-handed such as writing, brushing teeth etc). In the last 10 years I've systematically worked on my right hand and have had a lot of success, and am now fairly happy with my speed & accuracy - I can now play fast bursts of 16th's and quick tempo 8th's consistently without much warming up, and I put it down to tenacity, hard work, and importantly the motivation for wanting to acheive it.
Cosmic Gumbo makes a really good point about having to maintain speed chops - for me after warming up a bit, I'm comfortable playing 8th's at 230, but to be fluid, clean, confident and accurate at 250 or a bit quicker, I have to put in extra hours per day purely devoted to speed. And to be honest, as a listener I like quick tempos (210 - 230) but don't particularly get into really burnin' tempos - so my 2c, figure out what you really really like, then work like a dog trying to attain it.
-
"that's what many players have to rely on when playing fast. its still fast, but a fast right hand sounds faster because its so much more punctuated, percussive, strong, etc. it makes a much bigger impression on the listener, doesn't it? "
I think that you are just seeking a rise out of people, but to answer your question...No, it doesn't make a bigger impression on me as a listener. As a matter of fact, it sounds pretty 1-dimensional, and I often get pretty bored fairly quickly. I'm not sure what you are listening for when you hear a recording, but I think that a lot is going by that is fascinating to many others, but seems to make little impression on you.Last edited by WesMan; 05-27-2013 at 02:54 PM.
-
Thanks for all the responses!
And for those of you who are having a cookout and maybe swigging a few (or a lot), drink one just for me!
Happy Memorial Day Weekend.
-
You must have a very big bong. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
There are session musicians - I mean those who have to be versatile and to play the way it is needed to play, proffessional in litteral sence - and this is a certian type of person also who want to develop himself in all types of skills. Frankly speaking they are rarely very individual because it is impossible to be able to imitate anything and to be yourself.
And the kind of speed you're talking about belongs much to certain styles.
Greats are very seldom versatile in a sence of style.
And if we speak about old times there were no need of such versatality because jazz was more or less of the same language, it was enough to be yourself
Does Montgomery play fast licks? He does. But can he play a scale from up and down through all the neck very fast in equal beat with clear tone? I really doubt it. Why? Because his lick (fast of slow) belongs to own intonation and to pronucniation... it is just agains his nature to play these scales.
These obligatory scale runs come from perversed classical school where they try to train student to be a scale-playing machine.
I think Wes could not play chords in a style of Freddie Green, or chord melody solos like Joe Pass, or fingestyle like Chet Atkins and Django's brilliant scale shootings... but I am sure there are quite a few of modern students who can do any of that and faster and clearer and more precise than the origin.
You are sure to remember very nice Django-style performance of Harold Alden in Sweet and Lowdown - but frankly speaking it sounds nice but quite common like tasteful and grceful style imitation - and you can imediately here the difference if you listen to real Django and it is obvious that such a performance would never compete with Dajango performance in reality.
There is a story about virtuoso violinst Menuhin when he was asked just to play arpeggio or scales one by one from roots and he could not do it because he never did it out of certain tune or piece of music and saw no sence to do it. And he did not seem to be embarassed, he just said something like: what for? are we playing music? or is it a competition?
So 'fast in general' without certain piece of music is Formula 1 races.
-
You have to stand on a chair. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I like many of Jonah's points above...
-
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that Jim doesn't sound (and look) like he is having difficulty with tempo, and I wouldn't disagree. That was actually my point-he doesn't play long fast lines. He just finds a way to say something within his own limitations. Originally Posted by ecj
Matt
-
I've read so many posts that seem to deny this, but how can it not be true. We are not all created equal. We have different heights, eye color, IQ, math aptitudes, language aptitudes, athletic aptitudes, etc. How can anyone think that doesn't also apply to music in general and specifically to picking speed? Originally Posted by 3625
I'm not minimizing all the hard work that people put in, I don't think anyone comes out of the womb playing at 300bpm.
And, yes, us slow folk can put in a bunch of work and increase our speed.
Like a world class sprinter... World class sprinters work their asses off but they wouldn't be world class if they didn't start with the right genetics.Last edited by fep; 05-27-2013 at 09:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
Has anyone tried the JHS Clover preamp pedal?
Yesterday, 05:41 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos