The Jazz Greats that don't play super fast: Why not?

[jakeyboy1216]

One of the best jazz guitarists of all time is Ed Bickert, who is definately not known for his shredding ability. If I spend the rest of my life trying to play like Ed, it will be a life well lived.

Guys who can only play fast, without feeling or concern for what the song needs, are just wasting time. Guys like that are a dime a dozen.

But show me someone who can play intelligently with real emotion - fast or slow - now, that's talent!

[docbop]

I've read so many posts that seem to deny this, but how can it not be true. We are not all created equal. We have different heights, eye color, IQ, math aptitudes, language aptitudes, athletic aptitudes, etc. How can anyone think that doesn't also apply to music in general and specifically to picking speed?

I'm not minimizing all the hard work that people put in, I don't think anyone comes out of the womb playing at 300bpm.

And, yes, us slow folk can put in a bunch of work and increase our speed.

Like a world class sprinter... World class sprinters work their asses off but they wouldn't be world class if they didn't start with the right genetics.

Exactly every one has both fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers, athletes/people who do well in thing involving speed have high more fast-twitch muscle and those in endurance tend to have more slow-twitch. We are all truly individuals.

[fumblefingers]

"that's what many players have to rely on when playing fast. its still fast, but a fast right hand sounds faster because its so much more punctuated, percussive, strong, etc. it makes a much bigger impression on the listener, doesn't it? "

I think that you are just seeking a rise out of people, but to answer your question...No, it doesn't make a bigger impression on me as a listener. As a matter of fact, it sounds pretty 1-dimensional, and I often get pretty bored fairly quickly. I'm not sure what you are listening for when you hear a recording, but I think that you a lot is going by that is fascinating to some, but seems to make little impression on you.

no, you're reading way too much into my statements, and making a lot of assumptions too. I think that you are being one dimensional, need much more musical scholarship, and would benefit from years of listening to and playing all types of guitar music, most especially classical and jazz.

but then, I could be reading too much into your superficial response.

[fumblefingers]

I don't really get the fascination with picking every note...guitar players bitch about wanting to sound like a horn, and then they turn around and do the least horn like thing possible.

When will guitar players wise up and realize our instrument can do piano stuff and horn stuff and that the guitar is superior to all instruments...when played like a guitar?


And before I get flamed, I patially believe that, I'm partially starting shit, and partially have had a "few" beers since I started smoking a pork shoulder this morning...

I think that you made a little bit of a leap.

do you mean picking every note most all the time, or with a given passage? I believe that you're referring to the former. when it's the latter I think that it's a musical choice. when it's the former, more of a general approach to playing the instrument, and one that you are not apparently fond of. perhaps that's because you're a big Jim Hall and KR fan? regardless, players who possess a rapid right hand are able to make the musical choice, while players who don't...
(that was the OP's question I believe)

to your point about the guitar being unique and superior etc., I don't believe that jazz guitar players want to "sound like a horn". rather, I think that they want to play "horn lines" adeptly. by the way, a lot of jazz trumpeters play quite percussively and one could argue that the trumpet is the quintessential jazz music instrument. I think that you're thinking more about sax players. saxes are woodwinds, not horns, right?

[JakeAcci]

I've read so many posts that seem to deny this, but how can it not be true. We are not all created equal. We have different heights, eye color, IQ, math aptitudes, language aptitudes, athletic aptitudes, etc. How can anyone think that doesn't also apply to music in general and specifically to picking speed?

I'm not minimizing all the hard work that people put in, I don't think anyone comes out of the womb playing at 300bpm.

And, yes, us slow folk can put in a bunch of work and increase our speed.

Like a world class sprinter... World class sprinters work their asses off but they wouldn't be world class if they didn't start with the right genetics.

This is a great point and a good reminder for us to take it easy on ourselves sometimes. We all have strengths and weaknesses, some of those are somewhat innate - and if not innate, they could take so much work to undo/improve/whatever that time might be better spent on other topics.

A good example is the 'you should always pick from the wrist' perspective. There's logic to it - no actual scientific data, but certainly logic. However, an experienced player who doesn't naturally pick from the wrist needs to make the call whether they want to devote a year to revamping their picking technique (and who knows what the results will be like) or if it would make more sense for him to spend that year composing tunes...

i think a good question for us to ask ourselves is whether we want speed because it will improve our performances, or just because we feel frustrated at lacking an ability that many other players have.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I did say I was only partially serious

I like a balanced approach, overall--yeah, I think cats who pick everything are after a specific sound, it's a sound that can get tiring to my ears, but I appreciate good picking when I hear it, I get a charge out of hearing a player do anything well that I don't!

My favorite players are all over the map because of this...but I also don't need swiss army players, though Julian Lage gets close to that sometimes...

I stir the pot though, because I do think guitarists are often contradictory beings...

[JakeAcci]

I do think guitarists are often contradictory beings...

Some of us are, but all of us aren't.

[fumblefingers]

just about anything goes in jazz, as long as it sounds appealing to someone. its about individual expression, great improv, groove, verve. etc. so if it sounds good, it is good.

that's cool, its a kind of folk music after all.

one of the things that I like about great classical guitar music is that the composer decides. they decide whether the notes will be plucked or slurred, and they require both. there is no handicap for a deficit in a player's technical capability. its no surprise then, that the greatest masterpieces typically require a great guitarist to play them exceptionally well.

[Jonah]

just about anything goes in jazz, as long as it sounds appealing to someone. its about individual expression, great improv, groove, verve. etc. so if it sounds good, it is good.

that's cool, its a kind of folk music after all.

one of the things that I like about great classical guitar music is that the composer decides. they decide whether the notes will be plucked or slurred, and they require both. there is no handicap for a deficit in a player's technical capability. its no surprise then, that the greatest masterpieces typically require a great guitarist to play them exceptionally well.

Hi, I agree with you in some points... actually the idea that "everything goes in jazz" and " that is the feeling that matters" etc. brings lots of lousy players that say that is not that I cannot play it it is the way I feel it. But on the other hand if they really feel it - why not? You can always here pretender from a real hearing and musical man - no matter how skilled he is. Music is for everybody - come out there and play! And it's great that jazz and blues give this opportunity to anybody...
And it is sad that it was lost in classics because in 19th century people came home and played quartets of Beethoven just for fun. In Germany where the musical culture is highly developed even now you will find lots of lwaers, doctors, office-manager, plumbers etc. who play in the evening in an amateur orchestra or sing in a choire - and the level of musicality is very often higher than with professionals.

I disagree with you about classics - that priciple that composer decided almost everything develped in the end of 19th and in 20th century and actually killed classical performance - and in Bach's or Mozart's time there are not many indications in the scores of how to play it - just notes... (which in practice were even much embellished...) those days the performer was composer and improviser in a classical sence (could improvise the form - sonata, fugue etc with all modulation etc.) - that is he understood the language and could speak it with a sence.
But now classical student performers can hardly improvise or compose anything - they need composer's or editorial notes everywhere. Very often they do not understan why it is 'forte' here of 'harmonics' there - they just follow the indication.
It is like an actor who prounouces very clearly and distinclty his part in a language that he does not understand.

[Jonah]

just about anything goes in jazz, as long as it sounds appealing to someone. its about individual expression, great improv, groove, verve. etc. so if it sounds good, it is good.

that's cool, its a kind of folk music after all.

one of the things that I like about great classical guitar music is that the composer decides. they decide whether the notes will be plucked or slurred, and they require both. there is no handicap for a deficit in a player's technical capability. its no surprise then, that the greatest masterpieces typically require a great guitarist to play them exceptionally well.

Hi, I agree with you in some points... actually the idea that "everything goes in jazz" and " that is the feeling that matters" etc. brings lots of lousy players that say that is not that I cannot play it it is the way I feel it. But on the other hand if they really feel it - why not? You can always here pretender from a real hearing and musical man - no matter how skilled he is. Music is for everybody - come out there and play! And it's great that jazz and blues give this opportunity to anybody...
But I do not think that jazz is folk music - it is defenitely national unique music of the USA but it is professional in its basis and folk music is never professional and actually seldom connected with certain names - it is collective (blues or country music are real folk in that sence)

And it is sad that it was lost in classics because in 19th century people came home and played quartets of Beethoven just for fun. In Germany where the musical culture is highly developed even now you will find lots of lwaers, doctors, office-manager, plumbers etc. who play in the evening in an amateur orchestra or sing in a choire - and the level of musicality is very often higher than with professionals.

I disagree with you about classics - that priciple that composer decided almost everything develped in the end of 19th and in 20th century and actually killed classical performance - and in Bach's or Mozart's time there are not many indications in the scores of how to play it - just notes... (which in practice were even much embellished...) those days the performer was composer and improviser in a classical sence (could improvise the form - sonata, fugue etc with all modulation etc.) - that is he understood the language and could speak it with a sence.
But now classical student performers can hardly improvise or compose anything - they need composer's or editorial notes everywhere. Very often they do not understan why it is 'forte' here of 'harmonics' there - they just follow the indication.
It is like an actor who prounouces very clearly and distinclty his part in a language that he does not understand.

[Flat]

In the end, doesn't playing fast mean just as little as merely talking fast?

[docbop]

Just saw this Dan Haerle article on technique when looking for something else, thought it would fit into this thread.

Technique for Performing Jazz

[fumblefingers]

Jonah - on the anything goes thing... yeah, that doesn't mean I'll listen to it. I was just trying to be liberal for a change. failed.

and on the classical, I admit that I wasn't thinking very far back. I played some lute music, Sor, Romantic, Brouwer, contemporary, rag time, and swing last night. to be sure it's NOT all the same. the markings on the lute stuff were made very recently.