Remember when jazz guitarists were steeped in the blues?

[Jazzpunk]

Maybe living in Chicago, I'm jaded, but I find nothing special about the blues as far as being more emotional, only the performer matters...I can see some of the best and most jive ass blues any day of the week here...the fact that it's blues means little.

Any style played poorly means little. I think it's safe to assume that this discussion was meant to be about those who play it well and how it influences their jazz improvisation.

[mr. beaumont]

Any style played poorly means little. I think it's safe to assume that this discussion was meant to be about those who play it well and how it influences their jazz improvisation.

If that's the case, I want to know who these new players are that are ignoring the blues. Because my guess is anyone worth listening to isn't.

I also bet those who don't hear blues in some of today's young guns have a pretty narrow definition of blues.

And for the record, the only arguement I'm making here supports what you're saying... having blues in your playing doesn't suddenly make your jazz more authentic. I'm also saying that for some players, the fact you don't hear obvious blues references in their music doesn't mean they're somehow "disrespecting" the music's history.

[ptrallan01]

Fumblefingers mentioned that blacks seem to be able to take or leave jazz. Others have talked about the blues as part of a black experience. Both views are somewhat limiting. I've been black all my life and grew up with as much opera as blues! I played classical music until my late teens and lots of polkas too.

Please, remember the black experience is incredibly wide!!!!! I apologize in advance for my next statements but until you understand that there were and are field niggers, house niggers, and that there have always been free black people in america you limit your understanding of blackness in america.

My ancestors were NEVER slaves in this country. We came from the carribean and brought different influences which we merged with Jazz and other American aspects of our blackness.

Not every black person came to Jazz from blues. Probably a lot more came from Church music including hymns, cantadas, chants and gospel and the music of Bach and other classical composers. The early Jazz musicians, black, white and hispanic (there was a lot of cross cultural stuff going on in storyville and the ships between New Orleans and Cuba in particular) played church music and blues and jazz. Many historians credit the funerals where you went out to the grave site singing a durge or hymn and came back with a rousing improvised version of the same song. Probably the best known Jazz song in history is actually a hymn imported from Bermuda: When the saints go marching in!

Can you play jazz without the blues, yeah but it will miss a certain basic approach. Is it a race thing? NO!!!! The blues informed the formation of the music and if you get to far away from that you may have something else entirely.

Young black people today are still pushing forward the boundaries of music. Usually music introduced in this country by black artists is initially rejected as worthless. Look at the blues, ragtime which started out as whorehouse music, rock and roll and in the more modern days rap. The rhythms of rap are blue and funky and jazzy even though rap basically has no melody. But it works over Jazz because it was born from it. In its earliest modern form it might be called Jazzoetry a term coined by Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets. Gil Scott Heron, Arthur Prysock, Leroy Jones, Nicki Giovanni and many others spoke poetry over Jazz music. It was fairly common in NY in the 60's and 70's less so in the black community around the rest of the country. At about the same time the ska, rocksteady, reggae movement in Jamaica was giving rise to Version and Dub, where DJ's were doing a similar thing over those musics. With the influx of Jamaicans to the Bronx in the early 70's the two forms merged and Rap as we know it today was born. Out of Jazz, out of Reggae, out of Funk out of the masala that is black culture in america. Rap was and is in purest form improvisational much like Jazz is. We haven't taken or left Jazz just approached it from a different perspective.

People who come to Jazz from different backgrounds bring different things! That's what makes it JAZZ!

[fumblefingers]

Fumblefingers mentioned that blacks seem to be able to take or leave jazz. Others have talked about the blues as part of a black experience. Both views are somewhat limiting. I've been black all my life and grew up with as much opera as blues! I played classical music until my late teens and lots of polkas too.

Please, remember the black experience is incredibly wide!!!!! I apologize in advance for my next statements but until you understand that there were and are field niggers, house niggers, and that there have always been free black people in america you limit your understanding of blackness in america.

My ancestors were NEVER slaves in this country. We came from the carribean and brought different influences which we merged with Jazz and other American aspects of our blackness.

Not every black person came to Jazz from blues. Probably a lot more came from Church music including hymns, cantadas, chants and gospel and the music of Bach and other classical composers. The early Jazz musicians, black, white and hispanic (there was a lot of cross cultural stuff going on in storyville and the ships between New Orleans and Cuba in particular) played church music and blues and jazz. Many historians credit the funerals where you went out to the grave site singing a durge or hymn and came back with a rousing improvised version of the same song. Probably the best known Jazz song in history is actually a hymn imported from Bermuda: When the saints go marching in!

Can you play jazz without the blues, yeah but it will miss a certain basic approach. Is it a race thing? NO!!!! The blues informed the formation of the music and if you get to far away from that you may have something else entirely.

Young black people today are still pushing forward the boundaries of music. Usually music introduced in this country by black artists is initially rejected as worthless. Look at the blues, ragtime which started out as whorehouse music, rock and roll and in the more modern days rap. The rhythms of rap are blue and funky and jazzy even though rap basically has no melody. But it works over Jazz because it was born from it. In its earliest modern form it might be called Jazzoetry a term coined by Alafia Pudim of the Last Poets. Gil Scott Heron, Arthur Prysock, Leroy Jones, Nicki Giovanni and many others spoke poetry over Jazz music. It was fairly common in NY in the 60's and 70's less so in the black community around the rest of the country. At about the same time the ska, rocksteady, reggae movement in Jamaica was giving rise to Version and Dub, where DJ's were doing a similar thing over those musics. With the influx of Jamaicans to the Bronx in the early 70's the two forms merged and Rap as we know it today was born. Out of Jazz, out of Reggae, out of Funk out of the masala that is black culture in america. Rap was and is in purest form improvisational much like Jazz is. We haven't taken or left Jazz just approached it from a different perspective.

People who come to Jazz from different backgrounds bring different things! That's what makes it JAZZ!

That's very interesting. of course we have no moved away from the original post a litte bit. that's ok but before we go on i will make a few simple observations.

the original players mentioned in this thread were/are black. i believe that the OP was referrring to the current generation of prominent jazz guitar players - most of whom are white - as not being of the same mold. in other words a bunch of white guys don't play jazz quite like black guys do. is that really a surprise?

saying that blues is part of the black experience seems like a pretty straightforward observation. i don't think that reality is negated by the fact that not every black person has the same experiences - which is your point and personal example.


on to your new points. so hip-hop and rap are jazz, or a kind of jazz?

[TF]

I can't help but emphasize blues notes in a jazz context. It is ME, it is how I hear music, and people always tell me that that is what sounds best about my jazz playing. And I agree.

After dozens of years, I have a STYLE, even at my low professional level, and I am glad of it.

[Pukka-J]

I am tired of just talking gear, so I just chime in...

I'm no expert in either jazz or rap, but I remember rap being introduced on dutch TV in the early eighties.
With me being in my early forties now and rap not even originating in the Netherlands, it means that rap is at least 35 years old! In other words, I don't really understand all this talk about rap being modern :-)

As far as blues is concerned: I don't think you have to play, like or be inspired by early baroque music in order to being able to perform or like Chopin, Schubert or Liszt even though they all use the same basic musical form and language that was established in said period.
If you like blues, then play or listen to blues or feel inspired by it playing rock or jazz. Others have a different musical heritage or inspiration that mixes in with traditional American jazz.

Music, and surely jazz, is a living thing. It may and will develop in ways you may not like or understand. That doesn't make it any less jazz. The appreciation of it is purely subjective.

It's all good :-)

[TOMMO]

No mention of Kenny Burrell?

[patskywriter]

No mention of Kenny Burrell?

Or Gibson?

Or modes?

[fumblefingers]

Or Gibson?

Or modes?

i think that Kenny is a great example of a player who doesn't rely on modes.

he's really, really bluesy too.

and i think he sounds better on his Gibson Super 400 than he does on his Heritage. He sounds even better on his Benedetto - must be the ebony saddle.

[Stevebol]

I met Al Tinney one time. He's become sort of an influence on me. He was a performer. He may have gone through the motions of teaching but he couldn't do it. The subject of classical/jazz came up and a bunch of us were sitting at a table. He seemed to get aggitated and he said,"It's the same!" End of dicussion. For him, being so emersed in Gershwin, maybe he didn't know what else to say. Imagine Monk, very percussive but with great finese too. That's how he sounded to me.

I don't know if it's constructive to discuss players background too much. There has been a huge interest in jazz among classical musicians for a long time. Many associate jazz with improvization and they wish they could do it. Indian Classical Music, which has improvization is also very popular with some of them.

I don't know the background of jazzers these days. I'm guessing a lot of rockers get into jazz. This may be happening at the expense of musicians that are versed in repetitive music. Style=repitition and blues is full of style.

I say just be yourself. I can pull off very long solos sometimes because of the music I've played but I would have to be careful about being labeled a 'get-over' by playing too repititously in jazz. Maybe that's part of the reason I decided not to persue be-bop. Too stuck in my ways. If guitarists think they can pull off a Rusell Malone Route 66 thing then go for it. He doesn't sound like he's 'steeped' ,whatever that means, in blues to me but he sounds aweful damn good.
Good luck.

[TOMMO]

Or Gibson?

Or modes?

What is it that you want to tell me there? Sorry but I don't get it....

[MattC]

I read somewhere that Count Basie (from New Jersey) wasn't really exposed to blues until he went to Kansas City.

Also, for whatever it's worth, as I write this I am digging a guitarist named John Merrill and his trio playing live through the Smalls live stream-I just tuned in a few minutes ago and they were in the middle of, wait for it... a Bb Flat blues. Merrill took many choruses, playing simple, greasy, Grant Green-type stuff for the most part. He is now cooking on some bebop. Blues lives!

Matt

[Jazzpunk]

If guitarists think they can pull off a Rusell Malone Route 66 thing then go for it. He doesn't sound like he's 'steeped' ,whatever that means, in blues to me but he sounds aweful damn good.
Good luck.

If this doesn't sound steeped in blues than I must have no idea what this thread is about.

[fumblefingers]

agreed. that was blues.

[jzucker]

That's a bit of a pile. And a rather silly viewpoint. Jim Hall, for instance, can't play rock or funk, by his own admission.

Woosh - [sound of conversation blowing over your head]

I think this illustrates my point. Folks have so little concept of blues and groove that when you mention blues and jazz in the same sentence they imagine lightnin' hopkins and muddy waters jamming with Joe Pass.

NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!

What I'm talking about is the blues inflection influencing the groove, style and feel of a jazz guitarist's improvisations. And if you don't hear the blues inflection in Jim Hall's playing, i'm not even sure what to say...

[fumblefingers]

Woosh - [sound of conversation blowing over your head]

I think this illustrates my point. Folks have so little concept of blues and groove that when you mention blues and jazz in the same sentence they imagine lightnin' hopkins and muddy waters jamming with Joe Pass.

NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!

What I'm talking about is the blues inflection influencing the groove, style and feel of a jazz guitarist's improvisations. And if you don't hear the blues inflection in Jim Hall's playing, i'm not even sure what to say...

no JZ we got it. we know that you're not talking about the musical style known as Blues Music.

RonJ was responding to RichB who essentially made the point "if you can't play all styles, you can't play any style". (Rich said it with much more colorful elaboration, mind you).

RichB is no doubt a wise person but that particular point is absurdly false, of course.

A quick review of Rich's note reveals some other issues he has with jazz musicians - like perhaps being jazz snobs, jazz police, or simply narrow minded. So Rich lashed out. dats it.

[Stevebol]

Maybe living in Chicago, I'm jaded, but I find nothing special about the blues as far as being more emotional, only the performer matters...I can see some of the best and most jive ass blues any day of the week here...the fact that it's blues means little.

What do you think of the Special 20s? The hardest thing about blues is finding a vocalist. There's a frontman who posted on craigslist who wants to do that kind of thing. They sound OK to me, sort of. I don't expect anyone nowdays to be a great blues singer. They just have to be good enough. I just want to gig and jazz isn't happening where I live.
Besides, I wouldn't mind getting away from the more hard-driving stuff I've done. Trying to play bop the last couple years certainly won't hurt.
Like they say, it's a gig...

[fumblefingers]

Jack - you mean like so?


anyway, nice playing . and nice Super 400. and nice Artist Award? too, in the photo.