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Got to love the amount of PC in this thread. White people can't play the blues, huh? +10 liberal points.
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04-19-2013 02:30 PM
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I know that correlation does not equal causation but...
There's a lot of people taking Prozac these days.
Just sayin'.Last edited by Jonzo; 04-19-2013 at 02:54 PM.
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Hmmm Amund...I'm not sure I know what you're talking about...
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Check out White guy Roy Buchanan for some amazing blues...
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It's the liberals man, the liberals!
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I checked. This thread *did* start with a thoughtful discussion, unrelated to race or PC sensibilities.
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Nope, can't remember that time. This calls for more 'theory'.
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Where's the PC stuff? Somebody show me please.
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For some, blues is a problem, for others a goal. I just wish I could stop bluegrassifying Cherokee. It just sort of snuck-up on me.
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That's a bit of a pile. And a rather silly viewpoint. Jim Hall, for instance, can't play rock or funk, by his own admission.
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Disagreeing with someone else's opinion doesn't make one narrow minded it simply means you hold a different opinion. I never listen to Hendrix because it's not a sound I want to hear or make. I listen and play music because I enjoy it.
"Wouldn't it be a real drag if we were all the same" Savoy Brown.Last edited by rrbasic; 04-19-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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as long as we're commenting on this instead of the OP for now i'll say a few things. Originally Posted by Richb
jazz police players, or strict straightahead guys who only want to play that way (swing, bop, post bop) may be a bit inflexible but that doesn't mean they're incompetent. there are many non-classical stylists that stay within a narrow range, style-wise.
btw - great jazz, and great jazz players both came along before funk was invented so...
classically trained musicians are required to play all periods from the start (renaissance, baroque, classical, romantic, impressionist, modern, etc). their recitals require it. when they become pros - if they become pros - they are still expected to perform these styles. their recitals and recording careers require it.
but if not forced to do this, many popular and jazz musicians simply play what they like, and avoid what they don't.Last edited by fumblefingers; 04-20-2013 at 01:08 AM.
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race?
I love this quote.
Last edited by Tom Painter; 04-19-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Check out White guy Roy Buchanan for some amazing blues...
i liked him too. lived like a blues man, died like one too, sadly.Last edited by fumblefingers; 04-20-2013 at 01:11 AM.
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That's generally been the inference among many older black folks. I've always suspected that attitude developed because it was obvious whites haven't culturally lived through the centuries of pain that created the blues. At the advent of jazz, the blues was so much a part of black culture it was natural to integrate blues into jazz during its evolution. Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
IMHO, to suggest blues hasn't a place in jazz is to live in denial of all that's gone before your involvement with the art form known as jazz.
Jazz without blues is akin to eating good pasta at your favorite generic restaurant...as good as it may seem, you've also had Mama Gina's cookin' in South Philly...you know something is noticeably missing in this sauce.
The blues, for my tastes, is as integral to jazz as swing is. One wouldn't dare suggest jazz without swing. Well where is swing from but the blues!? However, what's happened is an evolution of a once American music on an Int'l stage...it's not surprising on an Int'l level jazz has taken a less blues based approach.
Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, Gene Harris..listen to those cats work a house...I can't recall how many times I watched mean Gene turn a house inside out with his blues laced keyboard magic...folks ate that stuff up!
Joey DeFrancesco pulls the blues off quite well, but one would expect blues to be the repertoire of any jazz based Hammond B3 player. Still, it's obvious, Joey D. gets it!
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-27-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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I'm not surprised to hear of Phil's experience, for Diz and Blakey were about sharing the love and joy of the music beyond the boundaries of race...in spite of the racism they experienced in their personal lives. Originally Posted by Tom Painter
Speakin' of Diz and Art!
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-27-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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I remember when jazz guitarists were steeped in the blues, but I also remember when gasoline was $.50 a gallon. And now I'm wondering if Django's gypsy feel and note-bending wasn't from the same set of circumstances as African-Americans experienced. And, aren't anybody's life experiences fair game in a music as personally self-expressive as jazz?
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Maybe living in Chicago, I'm jaded, but I find nothing special about the blues as far as being more emotional, only the performer matters...I can see some of the best and most jive ass blues any day of the week here...the fact that it's blues means little.
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Well there's your problem, Charilie Parker played a Kansas City not a Chicago blues!
if you weren't around in the 70's, nor less the 20's-30's, what can one truly know about "emotion" in the music as it relates to the integration of blues into jazz?
Any "performer" brings but a sum of their life experiences to his music. A technician can be a wonderful technical player but that doesn't make his music musical. All "blues" is not created equal...just as all jazz is not equal...so much gets lost in the label.
But it's interesting indeed to note a possible suggestion that a music born from the blues, as jazz was, where anyone would suggest the blues has no real place in "jazz music." hmmmm....
Speakin' of jazz and blues...a few masters, and a young Kenny Barron on tour with the late great Diz.
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-27-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Ageism now?
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What do you want from an old fogey?
No, just teasin' you.
But on a serious note, so many of my generation find it somewhat offensive today, in that just as jazz was co-opted in the late 30's and 40's, afterwhich one can naturally draw a line from that co-opting which resulted in the birth of bebop, there is a heritage to this music.
And the foundation of jazz heritage is the blues. To be dismissive of that fact in current day music seems to me akin to playing jazz clif notes. If one cares not to become a student of history before labeling themselves a jazz musician, that's their prerogative...Authenticity, in music, has no short cuts. And the more one has devoted themselves to the history of this music, its past, the better qualified they are to express themselves. All IMHO, of course. Okay, I said my peace.
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Without the blues, there would be no Catfish Strut. When you took the earliest blues, and combined them with this drumbeat, you had....jazz. You can still identify New Orleans music from this beat.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 04-27-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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I don't think the blues is totally ignored by the good jazz artists out there...I can still hear it.... I also don't think anybody denies the role of the blues in shaping jazz.
But blues is more than some folks think too...and I want to hear my players respecting traditions and bringing something that's authentic to THEM to the table too. And for me, blues licks are onlg one way a player can connect to roots and who they really are too.
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I think I see the line you're trying to draw, and as much as I recall $.23 a gallon gas...Syncopation, poly rhythms, note bending a.k.a. "blue notes", improvisation, are each elements of the blues, and African culture. And while Django likely integrated cultural experiences unique to his past in his playing, it was blues born of the aforementioned elements which created jazz. Jazz was not born of a vacuum. And it is that history to which I'm referring to. The blues as it relates to jazz. Originally Posted by ronjazz
At any rate, it's always wonderful to engage in a civil discussion about a music we all enjoy!Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 04-27-2013 at 06:52 PM.
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As I recall, in later times Miles often called himself just a blues player, and that his later music allowed him to express that better.
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