Why so few women players in jazz?

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My wife has a theory...

We were listening to some Sheryl Bailey last night, and my wife was actually rather shocked when i told her the players name..."Wow, a woman." She said.

For a minute, I actually thought I was going to come back with "Yeah, there's lots of women in jazz..." And there's many. But not a lot, not by a long shot. And certainly not as much as the ratio of male/female artists in rock or pop or country...

So my wife says, jokingly "I speak for all women when I say we like songs with words." I laugh, but then start thinking...where is the largest segment of female jazz musicians? In the vocalist category, right?

But "no," I say, "it has to be more than that." To which Vanessa says something that I'm still sitting with today that makes sooo much sense and I can't shake it...

She says "Women aren't wired to get obsessed with things like men are. And before you go there, yeah, I own a lot of shoes. But I also don't catalog them, arrange them in certain ways depending on my mood, or join internet forums about shoes. Men obsess differently. Men "collect.""

That last line started to make sense to me...as a jazz musician, as an instrumental improvisor, we are collectors of sounds, right? Would anyone who plays jazz here as their main music agree that they are obsessed with it? I know I am.

So is it the man's obsessive nature that makes him more likely to be bitten by the jazz bug? What do our members (male and female) think? Certainly it has nothing to do with ability (If you've heard Sheryl you KNOW that ain't it!)

(I always thought it was men's competitive nature that led us to "extreme" musics...but then I watched an episode of the Bachelor and learned about competition.)

I think she's onto something.

Well it isn't just jazz. I have worked about a decade as a computer programmer and in that time I came into contact with 100s of programmers. NONE of them were female.

I also messed around with some robot building, entered various forums etc. Do I need to say how many female robot builders I have encountered?

It seems that whenever things get too NERDY (in lack of a better word) the females can't be bothered. And guys we did pretty much pick the nerdiest of music genres and on top of that the nerdiest of instruments

I come from a school of thought where there is little difference between the sexes. That is.. I was taught that apart from minor anatomic and some (significant) hormonal differences we are equipt with the same brain and therefore equal capabilities and natures. That other supposed differences in "hardware" are often cultural fenomenas superimposed on the respective sexes.

But there does seem to be some major differences when it comes to obsession a you say and also competing. When a guy collects stamps he doesn't stop there. He catalogs them, collects information about them, spends entire nights in company of other men collecting stamps and eventually he will start comparing his collection to those of the others, which will motivate him to allocate more resources to his stamp collection...etc...

I dunno... it is infact a true mystery...

Autism and Asperger's syndrome are 4x more prevalent in males than females. Programmers frequently have at least some Asperger's symptoms. I love females, believe that they are as smart and capable as any man but many of them are inclined towards different interests. Brain capacity is undoubtedly the same but some of the connections inside those brains are quite different. Thank goodness! I'd hate to live in a male-only world.

I've taken any number of Cisco networking classes but have only seen one female among all of the classes I've taken . . . she was quite good. Likewise for most programming classes, you just don't see many women interested.

quote: "I come from a school of thought where there is little difference between the sexes. That is.. I was taught that apart from minor anatomic and some (significant) hormonal differences we are equipt with the same brain and therefore equal capabilities and natures. That other supposed differences in "hardware" are often cultural fenomenas superimposed on the respective sexes."


This is delusional propaganda, IMO.

1. Our brains are not the same, first of all.

2. Our "anatomic differences" are not minor - they couldn't be more MAJOR. (Thanks be to God)

3. We don't have "equal capabilities" - not by a long shot. Mind you, in some ways we do have equal capabilities, and in some ways we don't. But how the heck is that "equal"? Proportional perhaps, but not equal.

4. I don't understand your last sentence at all.


Here's an experiment for you. For one week, try treating women exactly the way that you treat men. How you look at them, how you speak to them, how you regard them, or act blunt or gruff or crude to them even if just joking around. More specifically, do this with both a female boss at work and a female "report" (subordinate) at work. Just wait and see what happens to you.

Can you say..... blowback?


Don't believe everything you hear from pop culture. (Dangerous curves ahead)

Agreed.

I've tried treating women as I do men and it doesn't work. I think that half of the reason we need them in civilization is to keep us on our best behavior.

I know it sounds sexist, but it has to do with penises. Music is a language, after all, & so many that play the guitar are saying though their music, "See how big my penis is?" Jazz guitarists are no exception.

Nonsense! That could be said of virtually any endeavor, music, auto racing, farming for a high yield per acre, climbing comm towers but self esteem is more than mere preening and parading.

That music is a way of attracting or impressing a mate, there's no doubt, but there's much more to it than that. It's an intellectual pursuit, a way to enjoy the passage of time, a way to entertain and relaxe others not to mention a way to entertain and relax myself. It's the perfect stress remedy for my job and that has nothing to do with attracting the opposite sex.

[Synchro]

Hi folks,

I was just going to post to the gear category, but couldn't resist putting in my 2cents here as well. I am a female guitar player and music therapist of intermediate jazz-playing ability. I am obsessed with the guitar, and as a result I have a number of joint issues. I actually had to stop playing for many years, but got back into it through the back door as a music therapist playing Nirvana songs . (I don't know whether the joint issues are related to my gender, or if in fact they happen often to the male gender as well. There are female players such as Sheryl Bailey and Mimi Fox who look quite comfortable when playing. And as BigDaddy points out above, there are many women classical players who are functioning beautifully).

As a result of joint issues, it has been a struggle to find a decent jazz guitar that is comfortable to play. I used to use a 335, which I loved playing; but I am no longer able to utilize this instrument. I therefore was playing a Strat, which to be even moderately comfortable I was utilizing a modified sitting postition with a footstool.
This Sunday I was at a guitar show in Costa Mesa, CA., and I found a 15 inch Eastman, which I bought and took home. It has been about as comfortable as the Strat, but I think if I could use a strap I would be even more comfortable. The problem is that I have is a thin, cheap strap; and I feel a pull on the left-hand side of my back after a few minutes of playing. I am therefore wondering if anyone knows whether or not a thicker strap might help alleviate this problem, and if so, which brand would be best.

Thanks for any information!

Sharon

Try Italia straps. They run a lot of two for the price of one specials. I would suggest trying one 2.5" wide strap and one 4" strap. I have a mangled clavicle and straps can be a real problem. Amazingly, sometimes the 2.5" strap is better for my shoulder.

I would not be able to play standing with or without a strap. I wouldn't even try anymore. I used to do that all the time when I was a kid. I have no idea how aging rock stars deal with playing on their feet.

I was just the opposite. I sat down as a youngster, now I prefer standing even though my feet and my bum shoulder get tired.

[Synchro]

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

No doubt about that.

I think the key thing to zero in on here is how jazz and blues are very much about improvisation, whereas classical music is not. There are many many female classical musicians, but few in jazz/blues.

So I think it's got to be something about improvising/creating that explains the disparity.

And it might also have to do with the fact that learning improvising/creating is way way way way way way way harder than learning to play classical. It's a completely different activity and it takes a special kind of practice to learn

I recently got back in touch with my high school choir teacher 40 years after the fact. I sent her a recording I had made of a jazzy little Blues tune I wrote and she was fascinated by the fact that it was improvised. Now she has a degree in music, knows her theory and is a fine player but improv' just doesn't enter into the picture. She told be that she had long ago concluded that her gift was in performing what was written by someone else. I respect that greatly.

I read well but rarely ever use that skill and to me a song is easiest to remember as a harmonic framework. I can play a piece straight but it takes a completely different sort of effort than playing Jazz. Classical music and improvised music are very different facets of the musical skill set.

I also play standing and some of my guitars are heavy (Les Pauls, Epi Sheraton II, and others) so I have tried a lot of different straps, and this is the best by far (for my needs):

Slider Straps Dual Shoulder Strap: Shop Accessories & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend

This strap distributes the weight evenly, improves posture and minimizes cramping and muscle tension. I can recommend both of these and they are not expensive. Anything that improves your comfort and posture while playing presents the opportunity for playing longer. I hope this helps!

thanks for posting this. I just ordered one.

Oh yeah. I was at a friends holiday house one night. He's a surgeon and really likes Jazz. Obviously he knows what music I'm into and he had loaded his iPod with Charlie Parker and other Jazz Saxophonists.
So it was one of those great nights where we all hung out in the kitchen and helped prepare the meal, sipping on some nice wine with Mr Parker and friends playing in the background.
About 2 hours into the evening both women present said almost in unison...."can you just turn that shit off!!"

So Mr Buble took over.
Oh well.

Somehow I find that not a bit surprising. My former wife, classically trained, just never "got" Jazz.

Interesting conversation. More female flute players than male. Larger proportion of female violinists than female double bass players.

I know that for me, all of my hobbies become obsessions... to the point of wanting to make a living doing them. Eventually, I take them as far as I can, then forget them; all except guitar playing. I used to think that was a male trait until my wife took up beading.

With the bass strength might be part of the issue.