Why so few women players in jazz?

[raylinds]

Without presenting better data, I don't think the jazz vs. classical argument can really be related to a good old boy's club issue. It's apples and oranges. My son likes death metal, and I don't think you can argue with the numbers of male vs. female audience members. Taylor Swift and Justin Beiber aren't playing to equally male and female audiences. They're predominately female.

Now, if you could say something firm, like "the serious modern jazz guitar audience is made up of X% female and Y% male", then you've at least got an argument to make if the percentage of players is vastly different from the percentage of serious listeners. (I don't think you could consider "serious modern jazz listeners" to be people who dine in an establishment with jazz as "background music".)

As to why more boys play death metal than girls, that's a different discussion. It's the same thing with the jazz vs. classical argument.

This is only an opinion, but I think Matt hit it on the head- I think it is simply a matter of taste. There is a lot of music that seems to appeal more to one sex than the other. Go to a Steve Vai or Joe Satriani concert and how many women do you think you'll see?

I would suspect that the number of women jazz players is relatively close to the number of women that listen to jazz, but that is just a guess and just thrown out there ti advance an interesting discussion.

It's interesting, though, to speculate on the reason for the difference in taste. I think at least a part of it has to do with the typical women's propensity for things romantic (for lack of a better term).

I think classical music (at least most of it) could be considered to be much more romantic than shred metal. While there is certainly some very romantic jazz music, I would think that classical would be considered more romantic, in general, than jazz. But I bet a lot of women probably like Kind of Blue.

Also, songs with romantic lyrics are probably more appealling than instrumentals.

I think it is about an emotional connection that women can make with certain types of music than others. Again, only conjecture on my part.

[ESCC]

This is only an opinion, but I think Matt hit it on the head- I think it is simply a matter of taste. There is a lot of music that seems to appeal more to one sex than the other. Go to a Steve Vai or Joe Satriani concert and how many women do you think you'll see? . . .


I think it is about an emotional connection that women can make with certain types of music than others. Again, only conjecture on my part.

Go to a Michael Buble concert, there are many more women than men. Its a great concert and I like Michael Buble, but you see men and their dates (an anniversary present to my wife) and GANGS of WOMEN, hmmm is that a jazz connection women are making?

[cosmic gumbo]

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

[coolvinny]

I think the key thing to zero in on here is how jazz and blues are very much about improvisation, whereas classical music is not. There are many many female classical musicians, but few in jazz/blues.

So I think it's got to be something about improvising/creating that explains the disparity.

And it might also have to do with the fact that learning improvising/creating is way way way way way way way harder than learning to play classical. It's a completely different activity and it takes a special kind of practice to learn it.

And the more I think about it, the more I appreciate just how freakin hard it is...so hard that one really does have to obsess about it to become any kind of decent improviser (full disclosure: I am NOT a decent improviser).

So basically, I think it comes down to men being more likely to obsess about an activity compared to women.

Also, we don't really have a biological clock, so it's easier for us to toil away at things for years. Women tend to set definite milestones ("must be married by 30! must have kids by 35!", etc) and spending thousands of hours transcribing, practicing, playing, etc, sort of throws a wrench in that.

I hope that wasn't too inflammatory?

[Evan]

That last line started to make sense to me...as a jazz musician, as an instrumental improvisor, we are collectors of sounds,

hey mr.b, just wanted you to know that your observation about collecting sounds has stuck with me all week. It's such a simple idea that probably many of you have thought a million times - but it's a beautiful thing and not something I had ever considered and I believe you are right. I think it changed something in me, somewhere.

Thanks.

[JimBobWay]

I'm not going to touch the premise of this subject with a 25" scale neck.

But there are excellent solutions for both seated and standing playing comfort that I have benefited from, so I will share here since the topic was mentioned. After discovering the Dynarette I use it for all guitars I play seated, allowing me to skip the elevated footrest. Highly recommended, it has made a huge difference for me.

Dynarette Guitar Cushions Leg Rest Footstool Eliminator

I also play standing and some of my guitars are heavy (Les Pauls, Epi Sheraton II, and others) so I have tried a lot of different straps, and this is the best by far (for my needs):

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This strap distributes the weight evenly, improves posture and minimizes cramping and muscle tension. I can recommend both of these and they are not expensive. Anything that improves your comfort and posture while playing presents the opportunity for playing longer. I hope this helps!

[Philco]

This is only an opinion, but I think Matt hit it on the head- I think it is simply a matter of taste. There is a lot of music that seems to appeal more to one sex than the other. Go to a Steve Vai or Joe Satriani concert and how many women do you think you'll see?

I would suspect that the number of women jazz players is relatively close to the number of women that listen to jazz, but that is just a guess and just thrown out there ti advance an interesting discussion.

It's interesting, though, to speculate on the reason for the difference in taste. I think at least a part of it has to do with the typical women's propensity for things romantic (for lack of a better term).

I think classical music (at least most of it) could be considered to be much more romantic than shred metal. While there is certainly some very romantic jazz music, I would think that classical would be considered more romantic, in general, than jazz. But I bet a lot of women probably like Kind of Blue.

Also, songs with romantic lyrics are probably more appealling than instrumentals.

I think it is about an emotional connection that women can make with certain types of music than others. Again, only conjecture on my part.

Oh yeah. I was at a friends holiday house one night. He's a surgeon and really likes Jazz. Obviously he knows what music I'm into and he had loaded his iPod with Charlie Parker and other Jazz Saxophonists.
So it was one of those great nights where we all hung out in the kitchen and helped prepare the meal, sipping on some nice wine with Mr Parker and friends playing in the background.
About 2 hours into the evening both women present said almost in unison...."can you just turn that shit off!!"

So Mr Buble took over.
Oh well.

[zigzag]

Interesting conversation. More female flute players than male. Larger proportion of female violinists than female double bass players.

I know that for me, all of my hobbies become obsessions... to the point of wanting to make a living doing them. Eventually, I take them as far as I can, then forget them; all except guitar playing. I used to think that was a male trait until my wife took up beading.

[Stevebol]

Jazz is definitely a male dominated field but it's a field that doesn't make much money and it hasn't for a long time. It has also been sexualized by women for a long time.
I believe the use of backing tracks(hear me out, not trying to start a flame war ) makes this issue irrelevant. I am a Karaoke entertainer now. I am no longer a 'jazz' muscian.
I just happen to like this website

[newsense]

While we're on the subject,...
why aren't there more female sound engineers ?

-

[fumblefingers]

While we're on the subject,...
why aren't there more female sound engineers ?

-

because they would have to be engineers?

the root word of engineer is "engine". is that what women are into? engines?

uh-huh.

[Space Pickle]

It's because there are very few role-models for girls.

[Stevebol]

I think women have better intuition for judging potentially worthless pursuits. This kinda keeps most of them from becoming jazz musicians and stock car drivers.

LOL. Isn't that the truth.

[aniss1001]

This is delusional propaganda, IMO.

According to whom? And what would be the truth?

1. Our brains are not the same, first of all.

No? Have studying some neurology and I believe they have pretty much the same structure. What would be the difference?

2. Our "anatomic differences" are not minor - they couldn't be more MAJOR. (Thanks be to God)

Yes they are minor. A LOT of things in common (2 legs, 2 arms, 1 head, etc.) and few things are different.

3. We don't have "equal capabilities" - not by a long shot. Mind you, in some ways we do have equal capabilities, and in some ways we don't. But how the heck is that "equal"? Proportional perhaps, but not equal.

Don't get your point here?!

4. I don't understand your last sentence at all.

I was reffering to the fact that noone knows which differences are "natural" and which are "cultural". Many of the things that were considered to be natural differences are now a days considered merely cultural.

Here's an experiment for you. For one week, try treating women exactly the way that you treat men. How you look at them, how you speak to them, how you regard them, or act blunt or gruff or crude to them even if just joking around. More specifically, do this with both a female boss at work and a female "report" (subordinate) at work. Just wait and see what happens to you.

Can you say..... blowback?

When it comes to female friends I tend to treat them as I would guys pretty much. Atleast Danish girls who are more "like guys" in many ways because they haven't been breastfed the idea that they are very different from guys.

Don't believe everything you hear from pop culture. (Dangerous curves ahead)

Don't worry about that. I'm not much of "believer". I tend to doubt everything. In fact I don't "believe" in "believing" haha. It isn't an important verb in my book. The important ones are KNOWING, DOUBTING and DOING Everything else is just "bla bla bla" to me...

[Smelodies]

[Smelodies]

[Smelodies]

[fumblefingers]

i liked that first one above. funky baby, yeah!


here's some MAJOR girl guitar shit.

[Dark Star]

I wish my grandma could do that

[fumblefingers]

uh-oh. found another one. not only can she play, she's a little tease.

your welcome.

[SearchForMeaning]

My wife has a theory...


She says "Women aren't wired to get obsessed with things like men are.

Billy Tipton: a jazz musician who came face to face with the jazz world and what it accepted as far as what women "couldn't" do. This is the true meaning of Improvising:

Billy Tipton: Self-Made Man

[AmundLauritzen]

Most women I know in jazz are singers. Though there are some who play instruments as well, but they are unusual individuals(and that's a positive thing) who seem to be free of "womens conditioning"/herd mentality and all the traps most women seem to fall in.
Well we can't blame them can we? Women can be very mean to each other, especially to those who try to stick out from the crowd. Their "pecking order" manifests in a much more vicious although more indirect way than with males. While men will call each other out on things and be very direct in their approach, women tend to be more excluding, talking behind each others backs.

I really admire the women who have the balls(for lack of a better word) to play jazz on an instrument. Emily Remler is the perfect example. She proved that women can play with as much lyricism and melodic sophistication as men, and that gender doesn't matter in music. It's all about believing in yourself and pursuing your dream(not what others expect of you).
I've gotten a lot of shit from my "friends" because I play jazz, so I can only imagine what women have to go through.

Emily is one the the musicians I admire the most. Sadly, she suffered from severe performance anxiety and many sources claim that this was the cause of her heroin addiction.

Though, she was praised highly by some of the most respected names in jazz. Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis and Pat Martino to name the first who come to mind. They all spoke highly of her, and it shows that people who can actually play are blind to petty things like gender and/or race.

There's a local female player in my city who is really making a name for herself. She's a saxophone player, and Coltrane is one of her main inspirations. Now that's not something you don't hear about often.

So yes, there are women who play jazz on instruments but there aren't many. Or maybe most of them go unnoticed because some people are still too immature to appreciate them for their music?

My two cents.

[fumblefingers]

so if you have performance anxiety you need to take heroin, and if clubs are rowdy you need to OD on heroin?

i'm sure you loved and admired Remler which is great, but there is accountability for one's choices. (just ask Emily)

yes its too bad, but it's nobody's fault but her own. same as the rest of us.

[JakeAcci]

Billy Tipton: a jazz musician who came face to face with the jazz world and what it accepted as far as what women "couldn't" do. This is the true meaning of Improvising:

Billy Tipton: Self-Made Man

What a great story! Thanks!

[hans halmackenreuter]

if we have a look into the classical world you will have hard times to find women on percussions if you enjoy something orchestral, or female drummers aren't realy that common in the pop-world too.

if you ask me. i think women who are playing drums are realy cool