Miles Davis was Mediocre

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Gershwin wrote great songs AND played a mean piano, but no one called Irving Berlin a great piano player (or musician) because he wrote so many great songs, or Duke Ellington either. (Though one does hear people say Duke was 'better than most people realized.' But people didn't go to hear Duke's band to hear *him* take solos, even though he played a few choice ones.)

!!! Irving Berlin wasn't a great musician? The Duke wasn't a great musician?

[paynow]

!!! Irving Berlin wasn't a great musician? The Duke wasn't a great musician?

Berlin was not a great piano player:

Irving Berlin, The Dean of American Songwriters"

Read the paragraph that starts with "Though lyrics were his immediate claim to fame".

Great songwriter of course.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Berlin was not a great piano player:

Was he a great musician?

[paynow]

Was he a great musician?

Insofar as being a great songwriter, absolutely.

[ksjazzguitar]

F*ck chops!

I love Miles.

And in a language Miles would have appreciated.

... Jack [Wilkins] said that one night in a bar Jim Hall whined about not being able to play fast. Wilkins told this story because he thought Hall was a *great* guitar player but also a *human* guitar player: he itched to play faster than he could. Who doesn't? ...

Well, it gives hope to people like me who will never be great chops players - it just ain't in my genetics. I was always a distance runner, not a sprinter. After a while, it just comes down to fast twitch muscle fibers (once you've practiced all you can.)

Of course the fact that I've hardly picked up the JG except for gigs in the last 2 years hasn't helped. But my final CG recital is in a month and a half and and I can't wait to put down the CG and do nothing by JG for a month. I have so many things I want to try.

But there are plenty of great players who are not speed-oriented. Personally, I tend to prefer them. As I said, I'm a big fan of subtlety, and flashy speed it kind of the opposite of that. When I hear some guy ripping through scales it often sounds unmusical to me.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Berlin was not a great piano player:

Irving Berlin, The Dean of American Songwriters"

Read the paragraph that starts with "Though lyrics were his immediate claim to fame".

Great songwriter of course.

"This is especially interesting given the fact that Berlin never really learned to play the piano. In fact, over his entire life, he ultimately could only play in one key, F sharp, essentially only black keys. Later, he had a device attached to his piano that would allow him to transpose other keys to his favored one."

Ha! He's like a folkie with a capo!

[ejwhite09]

I'm a firm beliver in all things being relative. Miles is a mediocre player relative to the group of players he played with, perhaps. But I mean if someone ever said I was mediocre vis a vis Charlie Parker or Django I'd consider that a compliment. Now if they said I was mediocre vis a vis John Lennon, I'd be putting some guitars on ebay

[paynow]

I'm a firm beliver in all things being relative. Miles is a mediocre player relative to the group of players he played with, perhaps. But I mean if someone ever said I was mediocre vis a vis Charlie Parker or Django I'd consider that a compliment. Now if they said I was mediocre vis a vis John Lennon, I'd be putting some guitars on ebay

I understand where you're coming from, however, my analogy of Lennon/Miles has to do with the fact that both were icons, not with the playing. Most cats on here can blow circles around John Lennon. I'm obviously not citiing him as a jazz player but as a person who pushed forward the zeitgeist, just like Miles did.

I'm not saying the OP is doing this, but about 90% of the time when I see questions/statements like this on forums the actual subtext is "I learned to play scales really fast, then I heard a Miles/Monk album where it didn't sound all that fast and I'm wondering why they had a career and I'm playing rhythm changes in the lounge at the pizzeria and no one gives a shit. Can someone tell me that?"

Because it's not 1948, Applebees isn't the Three Deuces and these guys were there at the creation of something, or better yet, they were instrumental (no pun intended) in its creation. I actually once read a question on a forum where a guy asked why his piano teacher, who played much faster than Monk, wasn't well known. Fucking hilarious. The guy wasn't even a jazz musician.

That was my point, and from a musical standpoint the Dylan analogy is better.

[MarkRhodes]

Think about it, who has inspired more people to pick up a guitar than John Lennon?

Uh, Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, and Jimi Hendrix for starters. (Then there's BB King, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughan...) Lennon---God bless him, okay? I *like* the guy and think he wrote great songs and put together some cool riffs---wasn't even the main guitarist in his own band. George Harrison was that guy. To this day, Paul McCartney talks about how underrated George was as a player, but nobody talks about how underrated *John* was as a player because he wasn't a great guitar and no one ever thought he was. Hell, every one knows what Miles's trumpet sounded like, but if you told someone "play like John Lennon"---what the hell would that even mean? With Chuck Berry or Keith Richards it would make perfect sense. With Miles, yes, but with John Lennon? None at all. What was cool about John as a songwriter--and Paul too--is how they put a lot of clever twists into songs. They were smart about that, and they had the gift of melody, which is worth a boatload of solos, but it doesn't make him an influential *guitar* player, and it doesn't mean that a generation of kids grew up wanting to play guitar "like John Lennon" (-though there was a generation that felt that way about Chuck Berry, and one that felt that way about either Hendrix, Clapton, Jeff Beck, or Jimmy Page.)

Joe Walsh told a story about meeting one of The Beatles---probably George, though it may have been Ringo---and talking about how big a deal it was to him to learn "Dear Prudence" on guitar as a kid. The comeback was that on the original recording, it took *two* guitarists to play the part because neither Beatle could play the whole thing alone. (It might have been Paul and George rather than George and John. Heck, Paul is probably a better guitar player than John was.)

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Really? You can do more with a guitar then Lennon was able to?

[ejwhite09]

I understand where you're coming from, however, my analogy of Lennon/Miles has to do with the fact that both were icons, not with the playing. Most cats on here can blow circles around John Lennon. I'm obviously not citiing him as a jazz player but as a person who pushed forward the zeitgeist, just like Miles did.

I'm not saying the OP is doing this, but about 90% of the time when I see questions\or statements like this on forums the actual subtext is "I learned to play scales really fast, then I heard a Miles/Monk album where it didn't sound all that fast and I'm wondering why they had a career and I'm playing rhythm changes in the lounge at the pizzeria and no one gives a shit. Can someone tell me that?"

Because it's not 1948, Applebees isn't the Three Deuces and these guys were there at the creation of something, or better yet, they were instrumental (no pun intended) in its creation. I actually once read a question on a forum where a guy asked why his piano teacher, who played much faster than Monk, wasn't well known. Fucking hilarious. The guy wasn't even a jazz musician.

That was my point, and from a musical standpoint the Dylan analogy is better.

No I got your analogy I wasn't contradicting anything you said. Just saying that technically, Miles Davis was a sound player. The people he is mediocre to are geniuses of music. Most people would chop their toes off to be considered mediocre vis a vis Charlie Parker. But I agree Miles's Influence and legacy will be in his compositional contributions.

Uh, Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, and Jimi Hendrix for starters. (Then there's BB King, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Stevie Ray Vaughan...) Lennon---God bless him, okay? I *like* the guy and think he wrote great songs and put together some cool riffs---wasn't even the main guitarist in his own band. George Harrison was that guy. To this day, Paul McCartney talks about how underrated George was as a player, but nobody talks about how underrated *John* was as a player because he wasn't a great guitar and no one ever thought he was. Hell, every one knows what Miles's trumpet sounded like, but if you told someone "play like John Lennon"---what the hell would that even mean? With Chuck Berry or Keith Richards it would make perfect sense. With Miles, yes, but with John Lennon? None at all. What was cool about John as a songwriter--and Paul too--is how they put a lot of clever twists into songs. They were smart about that, and they had the gift of melody, which is worth a boatload of solos, but it doesn't make him an influential *guitar* player, and it doesn't mean that a generation of kids grew up wanting to play guitar "like John Lennon" (-though there was a generation that felt that way about Chuck Berry, and one that felt that way about either Hendrix, Clapton, Jeff Beck, or Jimmy Page.)

Joe Walsh told a story about meeting one of The Beatles---probably George, though it may have been Ringo---and talking about how big a deal it was to him to learn "Dear Prudence" on guitar as a kid. The comeback was that on the original recording, it took *two* guitarists to play the part because neither Beatle could play the whole thing alone. (It might have been Paul and George rather than George and John. Heck, Paul is probably a better guitar player than John was.)

And lets not forget Django, and I'm sure more people pick up a Les Paul because of Jimmy Page than Les Paul!
I write good 3 or 4 chord songs, if I'd spend less time learning Jazz and more time playing them around town, I could probably be a much more known guy than I am. I have no idea why playing jazz means so much to me. I could probably be touring if I could happy playing pop music. And I'm sure thats true for many people who suffer to play a couple hours on a friday night.
Lennon and Macca's greatness is as lyrical writers, their musical compositions are very vanilla, which makes sense, as their main influence songwriting was Tin Pan Alley. So many early beatles tunes are in AABA. Im surprised more of their tunes haven't found their way into the jazz standard vocab.

[MarkRhodes]

Really? You can do more with a guitar then Lennon was able to?

Just what is that you think Lennon did on the guitar? Are you even drawing a distinction on *Beatles records* between his playing and George's (and Paul's: he played guitar too)?

He was a great songwriter; that doesn't make him a great guitar player. Further, I grew up on rock and roll and don't recall ever hearing John's name tossed around (-as a GUITARIST) in interviews with rock guitar players. One heard more about Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Gene Vincent, hell, Eddie Cochran, for that matter. Then of course the heavyweights: Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Beck, Blackmore.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Just what is that you think Lennon did on the guitar? Are you even drawing a distinction on *Beatles records* between his playing and George's (and Paul's: he played guitar too)?

He was a great songwriter; that doesn't make him a great guitar player. Further, I grew up on rock and roll and don't recall ever hearing John's name tossed around (-as a GUITARIST) in interviews with rock guitar players. One heard more about Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Gene Vincent, hell, Eddie Cochran, for that matter. Then of course the heavyweights: Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Beck, Blackmore.

Yeah, I guess I'm coming from a different perspective. Hell, I think Jimmie "The Singing Brakeman" Rodgers was a great guitar player too.

[ejwhite09]

Just what is that you think Lennon did on the guitar? Are you even drawing a distinction on *Beatles records* between his playing and George's (and Paul's: he played guitar too)?

He was a great songwriter; that doesn't make him a great guitar player. Further, I grew up on rock and roll and don't recall ever hearing John's name tossed around (-as a GUITARIST) in interviews with rock guitar players. One heard more about Chuck Berry, Keith Richards, Gene Vincent, hell, Eddie Cochran, for that matter. Then of course the heavyweights: Hendrix, Clapton, Page, Beck, Blackmore.

Paul was definitely a better guitar player than John and George Harrison, I love because if you follow the Beatles career you can hear a player developing. A musician developing. From early little 8 bar solos where he is ripping off Perkins and Scotty Moore and you just can hear him in each album developing incorporating new influences, by the time he releases his solo album you have a developed musician who has fully integrated his influences and has a unique voice.
Lennon himself was very upfront about his limitations, in many ways he played a role of leader of the Beatles his personality was much more important to their success than his talents. That said, I don't want to give the impression that I think playing rhythm guitar in a rock n roll band is an easy job.
I think and perhaps this also speaks to Miles' success, that sometimes if not always force of personality can overcome limitations of talent.
Let's be frank Im sure Miles's and John's abilities to frankly make asses of themselves in interviews had a lot to do with their success...one can never underestimate the power of good copy. If you give good copy the press will forgive your faults, cover your biggest mistakes, and always give you good reviews.

[pingu]

I really started admiring Miles when I transcribed some Miles melody playing and soloing. His phrasing was out of this world as mentioned previously. Getting sheet music didn't get me there, I had to transcibe Miles for myself. It was that kind of detailed listening that did it for me.

This was first tune I ever transcribed. I was looking for something easy, but because of his phrasing and use of space, it wasn't as easy as I thought.

Right on ........
Is there a better recording of Summertime ?
(and there are many many versions out there)

[pingu]

And what an arrangement by Gill Evans too ..... just superb
I'm just about to transcribe those horn answering phrazes

thanks for posting that

[ejwhite09]

Right on ........
Is there a better recording of Summertime ?
(and there are many many versions out there)

Yes, Bechet does it the best I've ever heard.

[max_power]

Well, it gives hope to people like me who will never be great chops players - it just ain't in my genetics. I was always a distance runner, not a sprinter. After a while, it just comes down to fast twitch muscle fibers (once you've practiced all you can.)

I don't think this has much to do with genetics. These days there are a LOT of 13 year olds who can play crazy fast, and I would attribute it to the availability of learning materials to do this, combined with the tunnel-vision attitude that faster = better. I guarantee that if you spent 100% of your time playing guitar practicing fast runs with a metronome, you'd be tearing it up in a year from now. But you won't, because there are more important things than just being able to play really fast.

I'm a firm beliver in all things being relative. Miles is a mediocre player relative to the group of players he played with, perhaps. But I mean if someone ever said I was mediocre vis a vis Charlie Parker or Django I'd consider that a compliment.

Miles isn't mediocre compared to ANYONE. He plays with more emotion than any other horn player I've ever heard, and his solos are lyrical and very compositional. True, he doesn't quite have the chops of Dizzy or Clifford Brown... but if you think that he can't play fast runs then clearly you're not very familiar with his catalogue. He just chooses not to do so most of the time. And again, chops aren't nearly as important as you're making them out to be. I can't see this discussion going any further...either you "get" Miles or you don't. But most of the great jazz musicians thought Miles was a great player, Paul Bley excluded.

[ejwhite09]

I don't think this has much to do with genetics. These days there are a LOT of 13 year olds who can play crazy fast, and I would attribute it to the availability of learning materials to do this, combined with the tunnel-vision attitude that faster = better. I guarantee that if you spent 100% of your time playing guitar practicing fast runs with a metronome, you'd be tearing it up in a year from now. But you won't, because there are more important things than just being able to play really fast.

Also at 13 you're limber your brains still forming and the only responsbilities you have are going to school.

Miles isn't mediocre compared to ANYONE. He plays with more emotion than any other horn player I've ever heard, and his solos are lyrical and very compositional. True, he doesn't quite have the chops of Dizzy or Clifford Brown... but if you think that he can't play fast runs then clearly you're not very familiar with his catalogue. He just chooses not to do so most of the time. And again, chops aren't nearly as important as you're making them out to be. I can't see this discussion going any further...either you "get" Miles or you don't. But most of the great jazz musicians thought Miles was a great player, Paul Bley excluded.

Just to be clear, I DONT think Miles is mediocre, I'm saying that IF he is mediocre he's mediocre in relation to people who are the pillars of modern musical development. Which ain't much of a shortcoming.

[Stackabones]

So many early beatles tunes are in AABA. Im surprised more of their tunes haven't found their way into the jazz standard vocab.

IIRC my Vocal Real Books (and probably the Real Books) have Yesterday, Michelle, and Blackbird. There may be a few more, but I think there are many more that could easily be used as well as other great tunes not in the RBs.

[ejwhite09]

IIRC my Vocal Real Books (and probably the Real Books) have Yesterday, Michelle, and Blackbird. There may be a few more, but I think there are many more that could easily be used as well as other great tunes not in the RBs.

Yesterday is a big one. But I think half their catalouge could easily be jazz standards...I mean Eleanor Rigby! the melody on that tune! Most of them have great melodies and for whatever beatles were, they did try a few interesting harmonic ideas...the modulation and picard third in 'And I love her.' Great tunes. I like Wes Montgomery's stabs at their catalogue.

[Dark Star]

!!! Irving Berlin wasn't a great musician? The Duke wasn't a great musician?

Grits ain't groceries?!

[musicjohnny]

Jesus Christ, for the last time, I'm NOT putting chops on a pedastool. My claim to Miles' being mediocre wasn't due to his lack of chops alone, but tone, vibrato, and just being a trumpet player in general.

I said it before and here it goes again, I was better off having said that Miles Davis was a mediocre TRUMPET player.

And yes, I can easily see The Beatles' tunes considered as standards. Grant Green did a wonderful rendition of "A Day In The Life".

It's always the guitar players huh?

[StraightNoChaser]

My wife thinks most of John Coltrane's solos sound like someone holding a goose by the feet and swinging it around their head.mmmmmmmm.
Miles is still the coolest to me,not the best maybe.There's not much any better than Miles and Coltrane together,only Wes.

[ejwhite09]

Jesus Christ, for the last time, I'm NOT putting chops on a pedastool. My claim to Miles' being mediocre wasn't due to his lack of chops alone, but tone, vibrato, and just being a trumpet player in general.

I said it before and here it goes again, I was better off having said that Miles Davis was a mediocre TRUMPET player.

And yes, I can easily see The Beatles' tunes considered as standards. Grant Green did a wonderful rendition of "A Day In The Life".

It's always the guitar players huh?

I think its probably the conotations of 'mediocre' more than anything thats causing the misunderstanding. That's why I said relative, yea relative to musical geniuses on the trumpet he may be mediocre, but he's certainly not mediocre in the general sense, as in he's certainly not a 'run of the mill' trumpet player.


I think Wes did a version of that one too. I'm gonna sit down with my Mark Levine and some Beatles sheets and do some reharms this weekend and see what I can do!