Dani Rabin rant

[Hep To The Jive]

So can YouTubers.

(not Christian obvs … never Christian.)

Yea Charlie was a killer YouTuber!

[Christian Miller]

I like a lot of his content because he has this shredder-muso perspective. He tends to overexplain many things (rhythm, chord-scale, etc.), but sometimes bits and pieces of those overexplanations help me see the guitar slightly differently.

Funny delivery that caters to a type of guy. High testosterone sometimes.

I find it a bit try hard. Thousands disagree.

He is genuinely funny sometimes.

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[Christian Miller]

So can YouTubers.

(not Christian obvs … never Christian.)

The whole rich human zoo can be found in YouTube comments. I’ve become immune to both abuse and praise.


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[Irishmuso]

I like a lot of his content because he has this shredder-muso perspective. He tends to overexplain many things (rhythm, chord-scale, etc.), but sometimes bits and pieces of those overexplanations help me see the guitar slightly differently.

Funny delivery that caters to a type of guy. High testosterone sometimes.

I don't think I am that 'type of guy' but who knows? In any event, Dani imho knows quite a lot and even if he comes across as 'how can you not know this?' , he seems determined to explain why you should know it. A lot of people could learn a lot from him.

[Hep To The Jive]

Another banger from Dani That's why we love him

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1A7iKELe6b/

[Christian Miller]

Yah. There were a few times what he said unlocked something in my brain. I especially liked his video on 12 keys is a waste of time thing. Clickbaity title but the info is so so good and thought out.

It’s not a waste of time.


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[Hep To The Jive]

It’s not a waste of time.


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On the guitar it kind of is.

[pamosmusic]

On the guitar it kind of is.

Beg to differ but alright

[djg]

[Christian Miller]

That's just the title, though. Content is something else.

I can see both why learning stuff in different keys is important (part of my tunes practice routine) and why it's not soooo important. Shapes (also part of my tunes routine) can make the guitar 'key agnostic'.

You’d think, but I think this is overstated

For instance, purely from a muscle memory perspective, the frets get closer as you move up the neck. Even if you use the exact same fingerings, B will feel slightly different to Bb.

Anyway, I prefer to practice through tunes rather than cycles etc, but it’s absolutely not a waste of time if you want to do that. It will make you a stronger player.


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[John A.]

Beg to differ but alright

Maybe not a waste of time, but doing all tunes in all keys is maybe overkill, and if one’s time constrained maybe not the highest priority. A compromise I sometimes do is practice a tune in C, G, F, Bb, Eb, Ab. That usually covers any key a singer is likely to call and reinforces understanding the functional harmony of a tune.

I think the reasons for learning a tune in multiple keys on guitar are somewhat different from other instruments (different technique/postional/register issues from, say, piano). With guitar, it’s less about dealing with physical differences of different keys and more about learning to overcome the tendency to think of a tune as a series of grips and instead understand it as a form and harmonic framework. For that, a few keys is as helpful as 12. At least that’s what I’ve found. No doubt, ymmv.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe not a waste of time, but doing all tunes in all keys is maybe overkill, and if one’s time constrained maybe not the highest priority. A compromise I sometimes do is practice a tune in C, G, F, B, Eb, Ab. That usually covers any key a singer is likely to call and reinforces understanding the functional harmony of a tune.

I think the reasons for learning a tune in multiple keys on guitar are somewhat different from other instruments (different technique/postional/register issues from, say, piano). With guitar, it’s less about dealing with physical differences of different keys and more about learning to overcome the tendency to think of a tune as a series of grips and instead understand it as a form and harmonic framework. For that, a few keys is as helpful as 12. At least that’s what I’ve found. No doubt, ymmv.

Im not watching the video, but no one on the thread has said we’re talking about playing tunes in all twelve keys. Just practicing in all twelve keys.

And Christian sort of pointed out the obvious there — every time you move up a position, you’re playing a very slightly different instrument. If you never practice your scales in B, will you be absolutely crippled in B?

On a piano or a saxophone, yes.

On guitar, no.

But I think you’d be surprised how much the slight feeling of discomfort you get in keys you don’t know can matter. You’ll be a little sloppier, a little more guarded and cautious, have a little less vocabulary. In the aggregate, that really matters and you just don’t sound as good.

In away the sax has an advantage because they walk away from that experience going “oh my god that was awful, I need to practice in B.” And the guitar player walks away going “ah well, not really my night” and keeps playing in C and F all day.

And for the record, I do practice tunes in all twelve keys. I think it helps me to memorize and internalize tunes, as well as learn more music faster because I recognize chord tunes that share common chord progressions much more quickly. For whatever that’s worth.

[pamosmusic]

The more I teach, the more I notice how often people’s abstract feelings of discomfort playing with others can be traced back to really concrete things.

Someone says they just don’t feel confident when they play with others. Or they just don’t sound as good as they do when they practice. Or they can’t play with the fluency they do when they’re practicing.

Obviously some of that is just playing live. As soon as someone else is listening, you’re just 80% as good as you were before they got there and that’s just life.

But I really think a ton of it has to do with people suddenly not being able to dictate tempo or key or whatever. Maybe your track has that tune 10 clicks slower, or you don’t really play a lot of blues in Eb. And it might not seem like it matters, but that stuff just manifests in feeling shaky.

[Hep To The Jive]

Maybe not a waste of time, but doing all tunes in all keys is maybe overkill, and if one’s time constrained maybe not the highest priority. A compromise I sometimes do is practice a tune in C, G, F, B, Eb, Ab. That usually covers any key a singer is likely to call and reinforces understanding the functional harmony of a tune.

I think the reasons for learning a tune in multiple keys on guitar are somewhat different from other instruments (different technique/postional/register issues from, say, piano). With guitar, it’s less about dealing with physical differences of different keys and more about learning to overcome the tendency to think of a tune as a series of grips and instead understand it as a form and harmonic framework. For that, a few keys is as helpful as 12. At least that’s what I’ve found. No doubt, ymmv.

I can understand form and harmonic framework of a tune just fine and still apply a series of grips to it as a practical approach. I don't think of notes in those grips when I play, does anyone? I can see where the scale degrees are, but it's just numbers. Can't do that on keys or trumpet, obviously.

But I agree with the keys you mentioned, only you mean Bb right....right?. If you want spend time practicing your jazz in key of B ok then, only you know if it's worth your time. I would be skeptical of a teacher who insist on that thou.

[Christian Miller]

The more I teach, the more I notice how often people’s abstract feelings of discomfort playing with others can be traced back to really concrete things.

Someone says they just don’t feel confident when they play with others. Or they just don’t sound as good as they do when they practice. Or they can’t play with the fluency they do when they’re practicing.

Obviously some of that is just playing live. As soon as someone else is listening, you’re just 80% as good as you were before they got there and that’s just life.

But I really think a ton of it has to do with people suddenly not being able to dictate tempo or key or whatever. Maybe your track has that tune 10 clicks slower, or you don’t really play a lot of blues in Eb. And it might not seem like it matters, but that stuff just manifests in feeling shaky.

That’s an interesting point.

I would say that after a long time of recording myself on gigs and putting my playing under the microscope I have come to the amazing conclusion that I play the tunes I know the best better than the ones I don’t - even if they have very obvious changes.

Tempo’s a big one. I learned from Peter Bernstein to practice in the cracks - try setting the clock to 184 instead of 180 or something. It can be surprisingly challenging.

When people slow down or speed up it’s usually because they are gravitating to a preferred, well practiced tempo.

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[John A.]

I can understand form and harmonic framework of a tune just fine and still apply a series of grips to it as a practical approach. I don't think of notes in those grips when I play, does anyone?

In my observation, yes, some people do. Not everyone, of course.

But I agree with the keys you mentioned, only you mean Bb right....right?. If you want spend time practicing your jazz in key of B ok then, only you know if it's worth your time. I would be skeptical of a teacher who insist on that thou.

Yes, I meant Bb.

[John A.]

Im not watching the video, but no one on the thread has said we’re talking about playing tunes in all twelve keys. Just practicing in all twelve keys.

I practice tunes. So practicing in all 12 keys means practicing tunes in all keys to me. But I don’t assume everyone understands practicing in all 12
keys the way I do or draws the same benefits (or lack thereof) as I, hence the YMMV qualifiers.

FWIW, for a long time I had a routine of playing through all modes of major and minor scales in all keys, single line and harmonized, plus arps of all that. So I HAVE practiced in all keys, but don’t find it especially productive anymore. Not a waste of time, but not the best use of it either.

[And Christian sort of pointed out the obvious there — every time you move up a position, you’re playing a very slightly different instrument. If you never practice your scales in B, will you be absolutely crippled in B?

On a piano or a saxophone, yes.

On guitar, no.

That was my point, except that I don’t experience a big difference in how one key feels vs. another. Maybe earlier on I did but I guess my personal history of playing with singers (and harmonica players in blues bands) from the get go and/or being the singer got rid of that discomfort a long time ago.

But I think you’d be surprised how much the slight feeling of discomfort you get in keys you don’t know can matter. You’ll be a little sloppier, a little more guarded and cautious, have a little less vocabulary. In the aggregate, that really matters and you just don’t sound as good.

I’m never surprised that some people find things hard that I find easy, or vice versa. But I’m old and have a lot of experience sucking at things that other people are good at and vice versa.

And for the record, I do practice tunes in all twelve keys. I think it helps me to memorize and internalize tunes, as well as learn more music faster because I recognize chord tunes that share common chord progressions much more quickly. For whatever that’s worth.

Aha! All I’m saying, BTW, is I think I can get that benefit from 6 as easily as 12, which leaves me more time for other things that need more attention. Other people strike different balances.

[Litterick]

He doesn't understand painting. Since he talks about structure, architecture would have been a more reliable analogy.

[Cunamara]

People also want to be told music is easy though, just learn this trick.

Xander: "Is it hard to play guitar?"
Oz: "Not the way I do it."

(ref. Buffy, "The Zeppo.")

[Christian Miller]

Xander: "Is it hard to play guitar?"
Oz: "Not the way I do it."

(ref. Buffy, "The Zeppo.")

A man of culture, I see


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[DawgBone]

When people slow down or speed up it’s usually because they are gravitating to a preferred, well practiced tempo.

I mostly disagree with this. The guys, especially drummers, with great tempo are never available short notice. The guys who gravitate to their preferred well practiced tempos are always available. Anyone deviating more than about 5bpm's in either direction over the course of a song is failing, musically speaking.

Take it with a grain of salt because I practice in B all the time. Except I'm always tuned a half step flat so it still works out to Bb concert.

As for that guy in the video....I watched the video of his group after the OP video. After ranting about players splattering notes all over he splatters a melody all over and does it with a five foot long pedal board at his feet. The youtube rant makes sense, and he is wise to make them, because more people will listen to that than his music. I'd love to get Jimmy Bruno's opinion on that guy's music, LOL.

[Christian Miller]

I mostly disagree with this. The guys, especially drummers, with great tempo are never available short notice. The guys who gravitate to their preferred well practiced tempos are always available. Anyone deviating more than about 5bpm's in either direction over the course of a song is failing, musically speaking.

I don't think you're disagreeing with me? I'm talking about a natural tendency which you need to practice to avoid. That's the main reason why Peter Bernstein suggests practicing at these 'in the cracks' tempos.

Big shifts in tempo are generally considered a bad thing today, especially in the era of the DAW.

That said, surprisingly large fluctuations in tempo are common in pre-click track based recordings. It's more important to me personally that music grooves rather than stays exactly on tempo, but most people are no longer living in 1974, to be fair.

[DawgBone]

I don't think you're disagreeing with me? I'm talking about a natural tendency which you need to practice to avoid. That's the main reason why Peter Bernstein suggests practicing at these 'in the cracks' tempos.

Big shifts in tempo are generally considered a bad thing today, especially in the era of the DAW.

That said, surprisingly large fluctuations in tempo are common in pre-click track based recordings. It's more important to me personally that music grooves rather than stays exactly on tempo, but most people are no longer living in 1974, to be fair.

I'm disagreeing with you to some extent. I don't know what "in the cracks" tempos are. 153 bpm is 153 bpm and might fit a certain song. There is no reason to avoid it in favor of 150 or 155bpm other than having a metronome without that setting. Calling Dr. Beat.....Maybe I'm agreeing with Bernstein, I just don't see it as "in the cracks". All numbers are equally valid. A song might sit perfectly at 98bpm rather than 95 or 100...I've had that happen before. I usually experiment during the pre-demo phase to find the ideal number.

Big shifts in tempo have almost always been a bad thing IMO but I think to take this further we'd have to define what is considered a "big shift in tempo". I def don't believe in click tracking live. I don't really believe in it in the studio but as you said, modern recording, especially tracking parts separately, makes it more or less a necessity. I'd rather track everything live on the spot w/o a click but the headache of getting 5-10 people's schedules to line up, and have the money for it, and the space....it's nearly impossible unless you have the big bucks.

I def believe if someone is rushing or dragging more than about 5bpm's it's generally a net negative. 7bpm is approaching "grievous error" IMO unless it is an intentional part of the composition. Yes a tempo increase during and after a hot solo might be acceptable, and even warranted, but usually it's an error committed by guys with less experience and time on the stage, in the studio, and in the woodshed. Maybe I'm biased because me and another guy in my group were grilled by a guy who came up in latin bands and demanded excellent timekeeping almost to the level of whiplash. It cost him his tenure actually....

There are some unique things that occur with tempo. I mentioned to a great drummer one night "I felt like you were rushing slightly through that section"...he was using some sort of snare hit marking tool and showed me how if he played exactly on tempo, it would create a feeling like he was dragging, so he picked it up a few bpm's through that section.

[Christian Miller]

I'm disagreeing with you to some extent. I don't know what "in the cracks" tempos are. 153 bpm is 153 bpm and might fit a certain song. There is no reason to avoid it in favor of 150 or 155bpm other than having a metronome without that setting.

Calling Dr. Beat.....Maybe I'm agreeing with Bernstein, I just don't see it as "in the cracks". All numbers are equally valid. A song might sit perfectly at 98bpm rather than 95 or 100...I've had that happen before. I usually experiment during the pre-demo phase to find the ideal number.

How is that a disagreement? 'In the cracks' is my description, so feel free to chuck that out. But what I mean is that the old physical metronomes had certain settings and couldn't be set between them.

Now with digital options you can set it to anything. But I think what Pete meant is that musicians still tend to practice at pet tempos, often a multiple of ten for psychological reasons. So slow medium is 120, medium up is 180, up is 220, and so on... What this means is that when you play with a band and a song at a tempo that isn't one of these, you are not going to stay at that tempo but unconsciously push things to what you are used to.

Big shifts in tempo have almost always been a bad thing IMO but I think to take this further we'd have to define what is considered a "big shift in tempo". I def don't believe in click tracking live. I don't really believe in it in the studio but as you said, modern recording, especially tracking parts separately, makes it more or less a necessity. I'd rather track everything live on the spot w/o a click but the headache of getting 5-10 people's schedules to line up, and have the money for it, and the space....it's nearly impossible unless you have the big bucks.

I def believe if someone is rushing or dragging more than about 5bpm's it's generally a net negative. 7bpm is approaching "grievous error" IMO unless it is an intentional part of the composition. Yes a tempo increase during and after a hot solo might be acceptable, and even warranted, but usually it's an error committed by guys with less experience and time on the stage, in the studio, and in the woodshed. Maybe I'm biased because me and another guy in my group were grilled by a guy who came up in latin bands and demanded excellent timekeeping almost to the level of whiplash. It cost him his tenure actually....

There are some unique things that occur with tempo. I mentioned to a great drummer one night "I felt like you were rushing slightly through that section"...he was using some sort of snare hit marking tool and showed me how if he played exactly on tempo, it would create a feeling like he was dragging, so he picked it up a few bpm's through that section.

Yeah... For me this is a disconnect between people's intuitive perception of what's happening and the absolute objective of a DAW timeline or whatever.

It's notoriously subjective. One person's pocket is another persons dragging, one person's rushing is another person's appropriate push. And some people are sticklers for metronomic accuracy.

A lot of classic jazz records speed up and slow down.

[James W]

People talk about 'in the cracks' tempos... should check out Stockhausen's Gruppen which features BPMs such as 68.5 and 89.6...