What Pasquale Grasso and Cecil Alexander have in common

[djg]

every note is short.

[brent.h]

1. Ok, so what does this observation or piece of evidence mean? As in what can we infer from this?

2. How is this helpful to our playing?

[Cunamara]

Luigi Grasso and Joey Alexander?

[PMB]

Cecil Alexander:

[Cunamara]

Whoosh!

[Christian Miller]

1. Ok, so what does this observation or piece of evidence mean? As in what can we infer from this?

2. How is this helpful to our playing?

Sometimes it’s good just to notice things


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[Ascend to Victory]

I saw in the comment section on Youtube Cecil post that he used to watch Reg523's videos back in 2010-2011.

[AllanAllen]

I saw in the comment section on Youtube Cecil post that he used to watch Reg523's videos back in 2010-2011.

I saw that too! I had no idea Reg was so influential.

[dasein]

1. Ok, so what does this observation or piece of evidence mean? As in what can we infer from this?

2. How is this helpful to our playing?

I'd say two things:

- Guitarists, especially those who coming from playing styles with lots of overdrive/distortion, tend to hold their notes for too long. They play with "phantom sustain." Long, sustained notes might be stylistically appropriate for blues and rock solos, but in jazz they can make your solos sound flabby, floating on top of the rhythm section in the worst way. Rhythmic precision matters, and part of that precision is clearly delineating a note's end.

- Practicing short, staccato notes is a great way to build left hand technique. Too many guitarists exert way too much unnecessary muscular contraction. You have to train your fingers not just to contract quickly, but also relax quickly. The faster a finger relaxes, the faster it can be moved to the next place it needs to go. Playing staccato lends itself to that; as soon as you play a note, you almost immediately mute it by releasing your finger.

[Christian Miller]

I reckon I could get a video out of this with a super clickbait thumbnail


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[equenda]

every note is short.

Hi!
I think you've made a very interesting and useful observation. But few will understand why.
I'll try to explain, hoping that Google Translate can help me.
When playing a stream of eighth notes, the traditional “swing” pronunciation is what many call “triplet eighths.” In other words, the first eighth note (down-beat) lasts about twice as long as the eighth note on the up-beat. This is only indicative, and when the tempo is fast, jazz musicians tend to play “straight,” that is, with eighth notes of equal duration.
Unfortunately, playing triplet eighth notes is risky for guitar beginners because the result is almost like an “Italian Tarantella” (that I know it very well...).

In modern jazz, many musicians, especially guitar players, have abandoned “triplet eighth notes” and always play two almost identical notes... at most, the first eighth note on the down-beat lasts slightly longer than the second on the up-beat.

The most famous example can be found in Pat Martino's improvisations, which PARADOXICALLY have a lot of ‘drive’ but very little “swing.”
Now I'm going to say something heretical: even George Benson doesn't play swing eighth notes!
To the listener, when the first eighth note (down-beat) is as short as the one on the up-beat... the result is a series of dotted eighth notes. What I am saying can be verified with Coda Finale software. If you want to achieve a phrasing similar to that of a contemporary jazz guitarist... write the part as dotted eighth notes.

Merry Christmas to all!

Ettore

[Ascend to Victory]

I hope Frank has Cecil & Grasso play together at Birdland soon. They can compare who has the shortest notes. Bring a meatball and you get in for free.

[Christian Miller]

Hi!
I think you've made a very interesting and useful observation. But few will understand why.
I'll try to explain, hoping that Google Translate can help me.
When playing a stream of eighth notes, the traditional “swing” pronunciation is what many call “triplet eighths.” In other words, the first eighth note (down-beat) lasts about twice as long as the eighth note on the up-beat. This is only indicative, and when the tempo is fast, jazz musicians tend to play “straight,” that is, with eighth notes of equal duration.
Unfortunately, playing triplet eighth notes is risky for guitar beginners because the result is almost like an “Italian Tarantella” (that I know it very well...).

In modern jazz, many musicians, especially guitar players, have abandoned “triplet eighth notes” and always play two almost identical notes... at most, the first eighth note on the down-beat lasts slightly longer than the second on the up-beat.

The most famous example can be found in Pat Martino's improvisations, which PARADOXICALLY have a lot of ‘drive’ but very little “swing.”
Now I'm going to say something heretical: even George Benson doesn't play swing eighth notes!
To the listener, when the first eighth note (down-beat) is as short as the one on the up-beat... the result is a series of dotted eighth notes. What I am saying can be verified with Coda Finale software. If you want to achieve a phrasing similar to that of a contemporary jazz guitarist... write the part as dotted eighth notes.

Merry Christmas to all!

Ettore

By your definition Dexter Gordon also doesn't swing.

I would therefore question your definition.

[equenda]

By your definition Dexter Gordon also doesn't swing.

Yes!
FYI Dexter Gordon is my all-time favorite tenor player.
Antother Jazz Great almost without "triplet-feeling" while improvising is Lennie Tristano.

Ettore

[djg]

to my ears pat martino is much more triplety than say rene thomas who plays super straight. which only goes to show that there are many ways to swing.

[PMB]

to my ears pat martino is much more triplety than say rene thomas who plays super straight. which only goes to show that there are many ways to swing.

Listening back to that solo, it's easy to hear the link between Jimmy Raney, Rene Thomas and Grant Green.

[Christian Miller]

to my ears pat martino is much more triplety than say rene thomas who plays super straight. which only goes to show that there are many ways to swing.

Yeah he sounds quite in the middle of the beat as well to my ears, not lagging the beat. Super relaxed though. He had me fooled on the tempo!

I would say he finds a pocket at slower tempos that is not unlike Jimmy Raney etc. a little behind the beat and catching the swing upbeat. Straight and late as they say.

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[Christian Miller]

Listening back to that solo, it's easy to hear the link between Jimmy Raney, Rene Thomas and Grant Green.

Which reminds me that Raney said that bebop was straight, not swung.

Although I often find Bird has quite a noticeable ‘dot’ when I slow him down.


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[djg]

Although I often find Bird has quite a noticeable ‘dot’ when I slow him down.

he has. and so does wes. it's all good.

i am on a huge rene thomas kick. there is a *lot* of raney indeed, whole bars of the moments notice solo are verbatim raneyisms (when he is not channelling trane's solo). i played along with the solo at somewhat slower speed and at one point i was playing a line completely in sych with thomas. i had to stop for a laugh. there is already a lot of GG influence. it got much larger later on when he also had more note separation under the influence of grant.
and with regard to the theme of this thread, all the players mentioned loved to ride their notes and give them some english. zoller told me how grant always made compliments about his vibrato.

[djg]

I would say he finds a pocket at slower tempos that is not unlike Jimmy Raney etc. a little behind the beat and catching the swing upbeat. Straight and late as they say.

you can hear clearly how doug raney got his ideas more from rene than directly from his father.

[Christian Miller]

and with regard to the theme of this thread, all the players mentioned loved to ride their notes and give them some english.

I don’t what that means but it sounds hip.


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[djg]

I don’t what that means but it sounds hip.

huh?

[Christian Miller]

huh?

Cream teas? Cricket on the village green? The WI?

What is this blue snooker nonsense?


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[brent.h]

I'd like to report that my fretting hand is moving slightly faster after trying this thing about keeping notes short. Prior to this, my left hand didn't feel so encumbered in the first place, but practising short notes allows my hand move with even less effort. It was slightly awkward at first to practise short notes and to relax the fingers quickly. But wow guys, you should try this out.

[GuyBoden]

- Practicing short, staccato notes is a great way to build left hand technique. Too many guitarists exert way too much unnecessary muscular contraction. You have to train your fingers not just to contract quickly, but also relax quickly. The faster a finger relaxes, the faster it can be moved to the next place it needs to go. Playing staccato lends itself to that; as soon as you play a note, you almost immediately mute it by releasing your finger.

I'd like to report that my fretting hand is moving slightly faster after trying this thing about keeping notes short. Prior to this, my left hand didn't feel so encumbered in the first place, but practising short notes allows my hand move with even less effort. It was slightly awkward at first to practise short notes and to relax the fingers quickly. But wow guys, you should try this out.

I agree, it's good advice.