Legato Guitar - John Coltrane style C Melodic minor / B+ over B7Alt

[jzucker]

Legato Guitar - John Coltrane style C Melodic minor / B+ over B7Alt


This is a Coltrane idea based on something he plays on Cousin Mary on the Giant Steps album. It's a bear to
play on guitar and over the years, I've experimented with a lot of different fingerings. This particular fingering
utilizes a simple pattern of 4 notes (5 at the beginning) and simply slurs every note except the first note of every
sequence. I was taught *NEVER* to do this but I think it works well for this type of line.


It sounds augmented because the fragment of notes that constitute the pattern are based off B+ (B Eb G) but it's
actually a C Melodic Minor scale.


On Cousin Mary, Coltrane played this over CMin7 but I like the way it sounds over a B7 Alt chord since it's based
on C Melodic Minor


By the way, the first song from my album, "When I Breathe" is available on all platforms and I also have a patreon. Details here:


linktr.ee/jackzucker

#jazzguitar #johncoltrane #Gibson175 #modernjazzguitar #archtopguitars #clevelandjazz #insideoutside

[Mick-7]

Jack, May I suggest that you post all your videos in a particular subforum so that people know where to find them, rather than putting them in various ones, like Technique, Improvisation, this section, etc. When you do that, they are likely to get lost among the forum threads and overlooked.

Thanks for your contributions.

[GuyBoden]

Many thanks for posting, that's an excellent melodic line, I had to slow it down for my slow ability, but it's a great line for my Legato style.

I have both of your Legato Books.

[Christian Miller]

Cool line. I suppose there comes a time when we realise what seemed like inviolable rules at one point are more like guidelines - which doesn’t mean it wasn’t useful to follow them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kris]

I play this beautiful line every day-how to exercise...great min mel.

[jzucker]

Jack, May I suggest that you post all your videos in a particular subforum so that people know where to find them, rather than putting them in various ones, like Technique, Improvisation, this section, etc. When you do that, they are likely to get lost among the forum threads and overlooked.

Thanks for your contributions.

that makes sense. You think the technique forum would be the best?

[jzucker]

Cool line. I suppose there comes a time when we realise what seemed like inviolable rules at one point are more like guidelines - which doesn’t mean it wasn’t useful to follow them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wrote this out about a month ago although I've been trying to play it for smoothly -- literally -- for decades. I decided to put some intensive time in on it with a couple fingerings that were my favorite and every recording was missing a note. On a whim I tried it like this about 10x and decide that -- while it wasn't a perfect execution -- for me it was the best way to play it.

[Mick-7]

that makes sense. You think the technique forum would be the best?

I'm thinking the Improvisation subforum folder would be best, Jack, since hopefully that's how we apply your ideas.

I wrote this out about a month ago although I've been trying to play it for smoothly -- literally -- for decades. I decided to put some intensive time in on it with a couple fingerings that were my favorite and every recording was missing a note. On a whim I tried it like this about 10x and decide that -- while it wasn't a perfect execution -- for me it was the best way to play it.

I believe it's a fairly typical shredder fingering approach, a la Gambale, et. al., right?

The only part I object to is when you shift from the 9th down to the 5th fret, for me it breaks up the momentum, but I'll have to think about how I'd do it differently.

[Mick-7]

Well, you'll have to shift somewhere, won't you? Here's a symmetrical fingering that I prefer.

[pamosmusic]

I don’t know —- it’s a kind of classical fingering. I tend toward big jumps like this to keep position fingerings consistent. Almost always I’ll choose something like that over a smoother motion that puts me on unfamiliar footing.

The trade off between ergonomics and consistency is a real one. To my eye it seems like a pretty typical classical jump that keeps the same left hand pattern from cell to cell.

And Jack seems to be pulling it off

[rpjazzguitar]

Well, you'll have to shift somewhere, won't you? Here's a symmetrical fingering that I prefer.

I don't know if anybody else would do it this way, but I find that playing bar 1 beat 4& (the B) with the first finger and then Bar 2 beat 1 (the G) with the 4th finger allows me to go faster.

That move of index on fret n to pinkie on fret n+1 is one I learned from Warren Nunes. It feels a little awkward at first, but it gets easier.

Then Bar 3 beat 3, an open string for the G. The A that follows is played on the same string so you don't have a problem with the G ringing.

Moving on bar 2 beat 3& (open B) also works.

[Mick-7]

Well, an advantage of symmetrical fingerings is that they make transposition easy, using open strings makes it more difficult.

There must be many guitarists who learned the standard scale fingerings only to find out later that they can be an impediment when playing jazz.

[pamosmusic]

Well, an advantage of symmetrical fingerings is that they make transposition easy, using open strings makes it more difficult.

There must be many guitarists who learned the standard scale fingerings only to find out later that they can be an impediment when playing jazz.

Which fingerings are those?

[kris]

Well, you'll have to shift somewhere, won't you? Here's a symmetrical fingering that I prefer.

I prefer different fingerings...
...more vertical.

[Mick-7]

Which fingerings are those?

I think the strict definition of a "symmetrical" fingering would be one that is an exact repetition, as below. But that can be difficult with scales/patterns that aren't completely symmetrical like the diminished and whole tone scales. Jack's fingering is awfully close to being symmetrical.



And there are players like Frank Gambale who follow a "play ____ notes per string" rule (fill in the number, I think his is 3 notes per string, which Jack's fingering adheres to on this pattern). But if your usual fingering system doesn't involve playing major thirds on the same string, i.e., stretching 5 frets, you'll have to modify or change it, which will probably mean breaking habits.

I prefer different fingerings... more vertical.

So then you like Jack's fingering?

[pamosmusic]

I think the strict definition of a "symmetrical" fingering would be one that is an exact repetition, as below. But that can be difficult with scales/patterns that aren't completely symmetrical like the diminished and whole tone scales. Jack's fingering is awfully close to being symmetrical.



And there are players like Frank Gambale who follow a "play ____ notes per string" rule (fill in the number, I think his is 3 notes per string, which Jack's fingering adheres to with this pattern). But if your usual fingering system doesn't involve playing major thirds on the same string, i.e., stretching 5 frets, you'll have to modify or change it, which will probably mean breaking habits.



So then you like Jack's fingering?

Sorry I was wondering which standard scale fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz?

[Mick-7]

Sorry I was wondering which standard scale fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz?

I was thinking of CAGED like systems that have many positions for scales, say repeating every three frets, which means you'd be shifting a lot and avoiding 5-6 fret stretches on the same string?

But really the change from playing diatonic to playing non-diatonic/chromatic lines, which extends the boundaries of common fingering systems.

[pamosmusic]

I was thinking of CAGED like systems that have many positions for scales, say repeating every three frets, which means you'd be shifting a lot and avoiding 5-6 fret stretches on the same string?

But really the change from playing diatonic to playing non-diatonic/chromatic lines, which extends the boundaries of common fingering systems.

Oh okay. I mean -- most people use some version of these scales for lengthy periods of their development. They wouldn't call them CAGED, but Joe Pass and Jimmy Bruno come to mind.

I use them too. I hate stretches and do loads of position shifts. With jazz in particular, I think there's a pretty significant disadvantage to big stretchy patterns, which is that you don't have fingers available for chromaticism. In one of the CAGED scales, you use one of the free fingers to play a chromatic passing note. In a three-note-per string scale, for example, there are a lot of places where you have the second finger up a whole step from the first, and playing the half step in between will pull you off your fingering.

Everything has its ups and downs but to say that those scale fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz is silly.

[Mick-7]

Oh okay. I mean -- most people use some version of these scales for lengthy periods of their development. They wouldn't call them CAGED, but Joe Pass and Jimmy Bruno come to mind.

I use them too. I hate stretches and do loads of position shifts. With jazz in particular, I think there's a pretty significant disadvantage to big stretchy patterns, which is that you don't have fingers available for chromaticism. In one of the CAGED scales, you use one of the free fingers to play a chromatic passing note. In a three-note-per string scale, for example, there are a lot of places where you have the second finger up a whole step from the first, and playing the half step in between will pull you off your fingering.

Everything has its ups and downs but to say that those scale fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz is silly.

"With jazz in particular, I think there's a pretty significant disadvantage to big stretchy patterns, which is that you don't have fingers available for chromaticism."

Not sure what you mean? For example, in C major, if my hand covers all the notes from, say, C to E on the A string, my first finger could fret C & Db and my other three fingers could fret D, Eb, E & F. I don't see a disadvantage in that.

Have you not had a student whose fingering approach impeded his ability play chromatic lines?

[rpjazzguitar]

Sorry I was wondering which standard scale fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz?

Seems to involve two shifts of the index finger, on consecutive notes, from one fret to the next higher fret. That is, you play a G with your index finger at the third fret, E string, followed by an Eb, same finger, fourth fret, B string.

Jimmy Bruno teaches that move with the comment "get used to it" (it was in his video on Donna Lee). But, it's not so easy, at least for me, at high speed.

[pamosmusic]

"With jazz in particular, I think there's a pretty significant disadvantage to big stretchy patterns, which is that you don't have fingers available for chromaticism."

Not sure what you mean? For example, in C major, if my hand covers all the notes from, say, C to E on the A string, my first finger could fret C & Db and my other three fingers could fret D, Eb, E & F. I don't see a disadvantage in that.

A lot of the time playing consecutive notes with the same finger is a bit of an inefficiency. Not necessarily and not all the time, but it's something I would tend to minimize.

But this is a different strokes for different folks thing.

I would much much much much rather shift than stretch and have not really had any particular issue making that work in the jazz context.

Have you not had a student whose fingering approach impeded his ability play chromatic lines?

lol yeah, but they were all shredders playing three-notes-per string. I don't really object to that way of fingering, but at some point they all have to play a quick chromatic passage using 1 2 3 4, or at least 1 1 2 3. That tends to disrupt that way of looking at scales and forces them into situations they haven't practiced as much.

[kris]

Don't forget about Legato.

[Mick-7]

lol yeah, but they were all shredders playing three-notes-per string. I don't really object to that way of fingering, but at some point they all have to play a quick chromatic passage using 1 2 3 4, or at least 1 1 2 3. That tends to disrupt that way of looking at scales and forces them into situations they haven't practiced as much.

Frank Gambale has no problem at all playing chromatic lines with his three-note per string fingering system:
Fingering: Leavitt v. Larsen

[Christian Miller]

Re 3 nps/chromatics - Here's a fun bebop lick from a Holdsworth solo (he does in fact have them) and my best guess as to the fingering. Getting the 32nd note turn clean is a challenge! (Tempo is about 60bpm)

[pamosmusic]

Frank Gambale has no problem at all playing chromatic lines with his three-note per string fingering system:
Fingering: Leavitt v. Larsen

Like I said — different strokes for different folks. It’s totally workable, and obviously people do it.

Also tons of people (lots more) use some variation on those caged fingerings and don’t have any problem playing chromatics.

Saying that a fingering system is an impediment to playing jazz is silly.