Legato Guitar - John Coltrane style C Melodic minor / B+ over B7Alt

[Tal_175]

I prefer shifts over stretches in most cases but I am comfortable with stretching and use it in certain situations. For example, melodic minor has four notes within a major third interval. In some positions stretching to access all these notes along the same string is convenient.

But then there is Peter Bernstein who uses three fingers and shifts frequently even when playing the major scale in a CAGED position.

[supersoul]

I like shifts a lot. They're good for slurring, helps make the guitar speak more, which is something I'm personally interested in.


For this particular lick from Jack, I prefer his fingerings because it goes with the line's phrasing, which is a series of decending legato phrases. Plus it's easier, picking wise. The stretches aren't Holdsworthian.

[kris]

Like I said — different strokes for different folks. It’s totally workable, and obviously people do it.

Also tons of people (lots more) use some variation on those caged fingerings and don’t have any problem playing chromatics.

Saying that a fingering system is an impediment to playing jazz is silly.

Fingering is very important in playing jazz.
Do you know B.Galbraith's 'The Fingerboard Workbook' ?
Subtitle is "Basic concepts in logical fingering".
best
Kris

[pamosmusic]

Fingering is very important in playing jazz.
Do you know B.Galbraith's 'The Fingerboard Workbook' ?
Subtitle is "Basic concepts in logical fingering".
best
Kris

Yeah man I know that one. Used it in college.

Im not saying that fingerings are dumb or pointless.

I’m replying to Mick who said that CAGED style scale fingerings are an impediment to jazz playing.

All I’m saying is that every way of fingering has its drawbacks and that writing one of them off as an impediment to jazz is silly.

If I were to say that 3nps scales were “an impediment to playing jazz” then it would seem Jack, along with Kurt Rosenwinkel and a bunch of other modern dudes would take issue. If I said that big stretches like 4nps scales were an impediment to playing jazz then someone would point me to Holdsworth.

Mick says that CAGED fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz. It would seem to me that he’d need to take that up with Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, and a few dozen other dudes.

[Mick-7]

Mick says that CAGED fingerings are an impediment to playing jazz.

I meant that they can be, if one hasn't worked out an efficient way to shift from one position to another.

By the way, what is your definition of a fingering "stretch," more than 5 frets? (beyond a major third on the same string). There are probably very few players who do that.

[pamosmusic]

By the way, what is your definition of a fingering "stretch," more than 5 frets? (beyond a major third on the same string). There are probably very few players who do that.

For me, I'm not putting two frets between my first and second fingers and keep second, third, and fourth on adjacent strings.

The Berklee definition (which aligns roughly with the classical conception of "position") would be an extra fret between the first and second, and between third and fourth, and the second and third always on adjacent frets. That would constitute a position and anything else would be a stretch.

But once again -- there are ups and downs to different ways of playing. The CAGED system is highly moveable and relatively simple. 3NPS has an advantage in range. The Berklee fingerings cover the neck better, but have some really weird fingerings.

All of them seem to work very well for various people and anybody good is going to spend plenty of time working on filling in any blind spots or weaknesses left by the way they play scales and organize the fingerboard. And again -- the CAGED system or something like it being almost certainly the most common by a pretty wide margin.

[Mick-7]

The Berklee definition (which aligns roughly with the classical conception of "position") would be an extra fret between the first and second, and between third and fourth, and the second and third always on adjacent frets. That would constitute a position and anything else would be a stretch.

Heck, that's a six fret span! Who stretches beyond that?

[pamosmusic]

Heck, that's a six fret span! Who stretches beyond that?

I don’t know man. Makes you wonder how CAGED would be an impediment to playing jazz?

[Mick-7]

I don’t know man. Makes you wonder how CAGED would be an impediment to playing jazz?

But the Berklee system is different from CAGED, right? (I don't even know what it is, I'll have to look it up.)

[pamosmusic]

But the Berklee system is different from CAGED, right? (I don't even know what it is, I'll have to look it up.)

Yes but the fingerings have a lot of overlap and that definition of “position” goes back to classical guitar and is common, well before and beyond Berklee.

So you can absolutely play a chromatic scale “in position” and without needing to change any of the fingerings of the diatonic notes.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm not clear on how these various fingerings are used when playing jazz.

Somebody calls a tune and the first chord is Bbmaj7. Before you start playing do you pick a fingering? Do you play within it?

Next chord is Cm7. Are you now playing within a different fingering?

If you decide to overlay one chord on another (soloing thinking about X while the pianist plays Y), are you thinking about fingerings for the overlay?

If you're not running the notes in order (like C D E F), and you decide to leave one out, the picking may change. Does that lead you to adjust the fingering?

These are real questions. I'm not clear on how the fingerings are useful. Caveat: I've never been able to get much of anything out of a diagram with dots on a fingerboard.

I did learn something about Chuck Wayne's system years ago. He had some specific fingerings for arps (scales too, but his arp fingerings were stranger) which maybe he employed verbatim?

I think Warren Nunes taught major scale patterns, but his actual solos were idea based. I don't know what happened if he had an idea that didn't correspond with a pattern. Or if that question even makes sense. My guess: he played what was in his head and transcended fingerings.

Does tempo matter? If you're trying to play blistering 16th notes maybe it's easier within a well-practiced fingering, but what about a ballad?

And, for reading, you can finger notes whichever way you want until the tempo gets high enough that you have to think. And, in my experience, knowing specific fingerings for scales doesn't help a bit. Reading is problem solving.

[Mick-7]

I'm not clear on how these various fingerings are used when playing jazz.

Somebody calls a tune and the first chord is Bbmaj7. Before you start playing do you pick a fingering? Do you play within it? Next chord is Cm7. Are you now playing within a different fingering?

If you decide to overlay one chord on another (soloing thinking about X while the pianist plays Y), are you thinking about fingerings for the overlay?

If you're not running the notes in order (like C D E F), and you decide to leave one out, the picking may change. Does that lead you to adjust the fingering?

These are real questions. I'm not clear on how the fingerings are useful. Caveat: I've never been able to get much of anything out of a diagram with dots on a fingerboard. I did learn something about Chuck Wayne's system years ago. He had some specific fingerings for arps (scales too, but his arp fingerings were stranger) which maybe he employed verbatim?

I think Warren Nunes taught major scale patterns, but his actual solos were idea based. I don't know what happened if he had an idea that didn't correspond with a pattern. Or if that question even makes sense. My guess: he played what was in his head and transcended fingerings.

Does tempo matter? If you're trying to play blistering 16th notes maybe it's easier within a well-practiced fingering, but what about a ballad?

And, for reading, you can finger notes whichever way you want until the tempo gets high enough that you have to think. And, in my experience, knowing specific fingerings for scales doesn't help a bit. Reading is problem solving.

I think the broad answer to all that is the 5-6 fret finger span strategy that Peter just described. Wherever you are on the fingerboard, you should be able to play all the notes within those 5-6 frets and know how to shift to get to another position in a different tonal center. According to Joe Puma, Chuck Wayne used this classical fingering approach.

Somebody calls a tune and the first chord is Bbmaj7. Before you start playing do you pick a fingering? Do you play within it? Next chord is Cm7. Are you now playing within a different fingering?

Practicing chord scales, where you're moving from one "CAGED" position to another, is a good way to get a handle on that.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not clear on how these various fingerings are used when playing jazz.

Somebody calls a tune and the first chord is Bbmaj7. Before you start playing do you pick a fingering? Do you play within it?

Next chord is Cm7. Are you now playing within a different fingering?

If you decide to overlay one chord on another (soloing thinking about X while the pianist plays Y), are you thinking about fingerings for the overlay?

If you're not running the notes in order (like C D E F), and you decide to leave one out, the picking may change. Does that lead you to adjust the fingering?

These are real questions. I'm not clear on how the fingerings are useful. Caveat: I've never been able to get much of anything out of a diagram with dots on a fingerboard.

If you asked me this question, I would respond with another question:

are you playing or practicing?

If you’re playing then of course you don’t choose a fingering for each chord etc etc

If you’re practicing then of course you *do*

Performing is always a bit stream of consciousness. At its best it’s an ear thing that transcends the muscle memory of the patterns and stuff. At its worst, you’re playing with your muscle memory. Most often it’s some combination of the two.

Practicing should always be deliberate. Even if you’re improvising, there should be some effort to focus that improvising on places that need work. This pattern or that — this position or that — this set of strings or that — this idea or that — etc.

Does tempo matter? If you're trying to play blistering 16th notes maybe it's easier within a well-practiced fingering, but what about a ballad?

And that’s the rub. When the goal is to just play and not think about this crap, you’re going to be limited to the stuff you know well enough to play without thinking.

The goal of practicing is to move as many fingerings and as many ideas into that place as possible.

[Christian Miller]

Tbh I find jazz is the biggest impediment to jazz playing

I think people can overthink fingerings. I’ve always found the ears have a way of telling your body how to play things.

Practicing and trying things in different ways is always a good idea. There’s no system that always works the best.

I mean, obviously learn your bloody scales, or whatever, and then learn them five different ways. And then five more. Once you get comfortable one way, change it up. That’s what practice is.

But 3nps, one octave cells, seven positions, CAGED, unitar etc? I’ve worked on all of them, and I still haven’t finished. I doubt I’m unusual.

Of course there’s tendencies that your body will gravitate towards but I think it’s a good idea to get away from connecting fingers to notes, unless you are in the first few years of your learning.

And I still play wrong notes lol.

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[jzucker]

I think the strict definition of a "symmetrical" fingering would be one that is an exact repetition, as below. But that can be difficult with scales/patterns that aren't completely symmetrical like the diminished and whole tone scales. Jack's fingering is awfully close to being symmetrical.

Attachment 122788

And there are players like Frank Gambale who follow a "play ____ notes per string" rule (fill in the number, I think his is 3 notes per string, which Jack's fingering adheres to on this pattern). But if your usual fingering system doesn't involve playing major thirds on the same string, i.e., stretching 5 frets, you'll have to modify or change it, which will probably mean breaking habits.



So then you like Jack's fingering?

my fingering does not conform to gambale's since frank would play 3 notes per string and my pattern is largely 4 notes per string

[Mick-7]

my fingering does not conform to gambale's since frank would play 3 notes per string and my pattern is largely 4 notes per string

Frank doesn't always play 3 notes per string either, but he prefers it because it suits his picking style. I really don't know how he handles asymmetrical phrases that don't lay out in a set pattern on the fingerboard.

Tbh I find jazz is the biggest impediment to jazz playing.

OMG, is that it? I wish someone had told me that early on!