Rock guitarists outlining changes

[mr. beaumont]

I posted this in another thread recently. The way a rock or blues guy guitarist plays "over the changes" is different than how jazz guitarists play the changes which is a more voice leading concept. Josh Smith said he spent 10 years learning to play the changes in the jazz style after taking lessons from Bruce Foreman. I don't know if the average rocker would go to this length:

Ugh...he said "jazzy."

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

As simple as the licks are, they change when the chords do, and because of these two solos specifically, I thought you played along to the chords not the key of the song.

I always like to go back to the originals.

(I once had a discussion with a “Teddy Boy”. The rockabilly guy insisted that Chuck Berry was not proper rock & roll. )

[Christian Miller]

Tbh I think good rock players have always played changes because they play compelling melodies that they heard in their heads. Otoh there’s a lot of people out there who thinks it’s all tabs and scales. But when you look at how the famous rock players learned the learning process is really not that different from jazz players. That’s why Lennie Tristano was able to use his teaching methods with Joe Satriani when they were looking at Sabbath, or Clapton or whatever.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Blackmore

Santana

[ruger9]

Man have I never been a Santana fan, and that's saying something coming from a rock/blues guitarist. Garcia too.

But then, like a songwriter friend of mine said, "you can't like everybody".

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Man have I never been a Santana fan, and that's saying something coming from a rock/blues guitarist. Garcia too.

But then, like a songwriter friend of mine said, "you can't like everybody".

No, you can’t. I really discovered him only in the past ten years or so. There is a certain truely felt depth and tenderness in his playing (which maybe has to do with overcoming some really bad experiences in his youth e.g. sexual abuse) that I really appreciate now. For me he is among the best in rock now — en par with Jimi. He is also a great blues player BTW.

[Zephyr690]

Peter Frampton comes to mind


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[EllenGtrGrl]

I must be an outlier. Many guitar players consider "Speed Metal Symphony" to be a classic, but I'm not one of them. When it came out in the mid 80s. I was a college student at the time, and was one of the original thrash metal kids. We used to call thrash metal, speed metal in the early days of thrash, and I expected that album to sound kind of thrashy. There was tons of technical prowess, but song-wise, wellll, not so good IMO. It sounded like one big, non-stop solo. That's not my thing, For decades, one of my core music credos has been to "play for the song", even in the cases (actually most of the time), I was the lead guitarist in the bands I was in.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I must be an outlier - I bought "Speed Metal Symphony" when it came out in the mid 80s. I was a college student at the time, and was one of the original thrash metal kids. We used to call thrash metal, speed metal in the early days of thrash, and I expected that album to sound kind of thrashy. There was tons of technical prowess, but song-wise, wellll, no so good IMO. It sounded like one big, non-stop solo. That's not my thing, For decades, one of my core music credos has been to "play for the song", even when the cases (actually most of the time), I was the lead guitarist in the bands I was in.

I was listening to thrash and speed metal when I was 16 or 17 and was impressed by the shredding and the sheer power that expressed my teenage angst and anger somehow. Nowadays I find Cacophony and even more Yngwie horrible.

Van Halen is a different story. It is deeply rooted in classic blues rock and Eddie is for me a very underrated rhythm player. And they wrote real songs (and I still like David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar somehow).

Of course the song comes first.

[James W]

I was listening to thrash and speed metal when I was 16 or 17 and was impressed by the shredding and the sheer power that expressed my teenage angst and anger somehow. Nowadays I find Cacophony and even more Yngwie horrible.

Van Halen is a different story. It is deeply rooted in classic blues rock and Eddie is for me a very underrated rhythm player. And they wrote real songs (and I still like David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar somehow).

Of course the song comes first.

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by 'the song comes first', especially when we're dealing with instrumental music.

I would take this:

... over this:

.. any day, all day.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by 'the song comes first', especially when we're dealing with instrumental music.

I would take this:

... over this:

.. any day, all day.

“The song comes first” was a confirmation of EllenGtrGrl’s statement regarding playing in rock bands because that was my own attitude while playing in a band (ten years) as well.

I stopped following Van Halen’s career after “OU812” (1988 — Eddie still had long hair) because I got into other things (Jimi, Led Zep, ZZ Top, blues, jazz; for one year I would almost exclusively listen to folks like John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters) so I did not know that song that did not enjoy very much as well.

But before I’d listen to Yngwie (“More is more!!!”) I’d rather listen to Napalm Death, Mekong Delta or Celtic Frost again LOL.

Here is some older stuff by VH that still can listen to:

(The latter shows that in the 80ies there was not only a bad taste in clothing but in humor as well)

Eddie’s and Alex’ father was an amateur clarinetist:

[James W]

TBH, although I've listened to Yngwie and Van Halen and can appreciate both in small doses (that Yngwie track I linked to is a bit of an anomaly in that I really actually like it) if we're talking eighties and playing for the song I give you Johnny Marr, beautifully weaving intricate lines around Morrissey's voice -

[Christian Miller]

Since bop head mentioned napalm death it’s important to identify the high watermark of western music that is of course the intersection of Cardiacs and ND

Tim Smith highly underrated of course. Solo at 3:05. Nothing to do with the OP of course as it’s entirely modal, but there you go. The English Zappa imo. Well actually the comparison is lazy, but it gives an idea.

[Christian Miller]

I give you Johnny Marr, beautifully weaving intricate lines around Morrissey's voice -

Proof positive that you can in fact polish a turd

well maybe if you are JM

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

TBH, although I've listened to Yngwie and Van Halen and can appreciate both in small doses (that Yngwie track I linked to is a bit of an anomaly in that I really actually like it) if we're talking eighties and playing for the song I give you Johnny Marr, beautifully weaving intricate lines around Morrissey's voice -

The Smiths never really got me. I really enjoyed doing lights for a Johnny Marr and the Healers show once (must have been 2003, with Ringo’s son Zak Starkey on drums) but that of course was more psychedelic stuff leaning towards 60ies and 70ies blues rock. The little pop music I liked in the late 80ies was Killing Joke’s Love Like Blood, some Sisters of Mercy, The Cure, New Order’s Blue Monday, some Depeche Mode, Joy Division’s Love Will Tear Us Apart, some REM, obscure stuff like Hüsker Dü, Tav Falco’s Panther Burns, Camper Van Beethoven — all stuff more on the darker side of emotions maybe. And Dire Straits and Genesis LOL.

Which brings us back to topic and to the old days when Peter Gabriel was playing concert flute in strange costumes:

[ChazFromCali]

It's a I IV V bluz, but Jimi hits the changes pretty sweet. I always loved how he puts "ten pounds of sh*t into a one pound box", emotionally.


Red House - Jimi Hendrix (LIve 1969)

Also, @2:04 into the 1st verse....... he knows there's two blue scales and knows how to use them.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Since bop head mentioned napalm death it’s important to identify the high watermark of western music that is of course the intersection of Cardiacs and ND

Tim Smith highly underrated of course. Solo at 3:05. Nothing to do with the OP of course as it’s entirely modal, but there you go. The English Zappa imo. Well actually the comparison is lazy, but it gives an idea.

Just in case it is of interest for someone: The voice of Napalm Death’s singer is not in the monitor wedges at concerts.

And a funny anectode: I was working at a ND show in the late 90ies. A colleague of mine came and wanted to do the lights voluntarily (he was later working for Slipknot in the states flying around with them in their private jet and doing the lighting for them and their real roller-coaster on stage). So I had time to be sent down through the headbanging crowd to the monitor desk stage right by ND’s FOH sound engineer who said he had no signal from the bass D.I. — so I went to the house sound guy doing monitors* and told him the problem. But he had the signal on his desk and we went through the crowd and up onto the balcony where the FOH desk was located and my colleague immediately solved the problem: ND’s sound guy was so stoned that he had forgotten to turn up the gain on the bass D.I. channel . (At that time I myself was not yet experienced enough in sound to realize the problem but I remembered the lesson.)

* BTW it was so loud at the side of the stage that my pants were literally fluttering and the guitarist standing right in front of the side-fill monitor was giving signs wanting more, more, more.

[vintagelove]

Honestly, I think most of the good ones did. Of course they’re simple changes and usually in a single key, but that’s what makes the melodic players sound better than noodlers.

[EllenGtrGrl]

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by 'the song comes first', especially when we're dealing with instrumental music.

I would take this:

... over this:

.. any day, all day.

To me, the "song comes first, means playing what fits the song, and adds to it. In most cases, this means "don't overplay." If the musical situation calls for playing million notes a minute, then there's no problem with doing so. The problem some players (especially shredders) have is they over play - playing a flurry of notes becomes less about contributing to the song, and more about showing about how great of a player they are, even if it sounds out of place in the song.

[sgcim]

Apart from the fact that his name was Aleister, why?

EDIT: To clarify, I am not a fan of Aleister Crowley at all and I like the fact that Georges Gurdijeff kicked him out off La Prieuré when he wanted to stay there.

It sucked!

[sgcim]

Steve Miller did a smooth jazz album in 1988:

It's a great album, and I love his singing, and Phil Woods' playing on it, but SM might as well be playing a I -IV- V than tunes like When Sunny Gets Blown, Born 2B Blue, Willow Weep For Me etc...
Now Guthrie Govan, that boy knows his schist!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sgcim]

Peter Frampton comes to mind


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

A friend of mine was touring with PF, and my friend told him about me, and when they were in NY, PF said he wanted to meet me.
I was in my 20s and jazz was my life back then, so what did I tell my friend when he called me from a show at the Nassau Coliseum to come down and meet PF?
"WTF would I wanna meet that pentatonic wanking rocker!?"

[sgcim]

Pure pop and pure great voice leading over some really tasty changes.
Hall and Oats

I used to play in a GB band that worked for the same agency as that the guitar player who played the solo on that H&O song.It's a good solo, but you can hear it's a worked out sequence of one idea. I never heard him play over changes when I heard him play on gigs..He was a genius at arranging rock stuff, and has made tons of money in the studios.
The drummer in his band was the best funk drummer I ever played with, and could also play jazz and swing like a mother. He played with Joe Cocker.

[sgcim]

Joe Beck made a comment in GP magazine. "There is no relation between playing bebop guitar and playing rock guitar".

[djg]

Joe Beck made a comment in GP magazine. "There is no relation between playing bebop guitar and playing rock guitar".

i'd say the blues is a common denominator