Rock guitarists outlining changes

**grahambop** · 10-14-2022, 06:42 AM

Jeff Beck.

**grahambop** · 10-14-2022, 06:47 AM

Jan Akkerman.

**ruger9** · 10-14-2022, 07:07 AM

This whole "flurry of notes" criticism about the shredders... I get it. I also get that this is a jazz forum. However, of all genre players, JAZZ players should understand the "too many notes" thing, or more specifically, the "using a flurry of notes to carry a very simple melody", as they are the KINGS of that. Nothing wrong with a flurry of notes, done right. Malmsteen was that, back in the day. Vai still does it.

You just have to put aside the "gunshot drums" lol... there's a great melody there. And you can't not admire the level of technique required. Don't enjoy it? That's fine. But you can't say it doesn't take boatloads of technique and talent, or that there's no melody.

**AllanAllen** · 10-14-2022, 10:30 AM

I don't get this conversation, Charlie Parker was a flurry of notes shredder, Joe Pass too.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-14-2022, 10:48 AM

I don't really consider the word "shredder" an insult.

But there's a difference between quality music with a lot of notes, and music that's just an excuse for making a lot of notes. And yes, some of the so called "shredders" made some quality music.

**EllenGtrGrl** · 10-14-2022, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I don't really consider the word "shredder" an insult.

But there's a difference between quality music with a lot of notes, and music that's just an excuse for making a lot of notes. And yes, some of the so called "shredders" made some quality music.

True. I will admit, back in the 80s, I was into shredding. I also saw Joe Satriani perform twice in his "Surfing With The Alien" and "Flying In a Blue Dream" era (back when he had hair

) - fantastic musicianship, and some cool songs, though I admit that some of them were kind of 'meh" to me. To this day I think "Crushing Day" is a cool song, that Satriani just burns on - he mixes things up from slow bluesy passages, to sections where he kicks in the afterburner, and takes off with 16th and 32nd note flurries.

I saw Joe Perform it live twice, and he nailed it each time. The thing his playing is reminds me of arrangements I used to have to play when I played Euphonium in Symphonic Band in high school, and college - it meshes into the overall song structure. So many shred songs try to overpower the song, by solos becoming THE song, to the point where you don't even notice the rest of the instrumentation. As a result, I got bored with shred music - besides, I not only like to play guitar, I also like to sing (I've not only played lead guitar in bands, but I've also sang lead and backing vocals [I especially LOVE singing harmony]), and few shredder songs have singing in them.

Jeff Beck was mentioned in an earlier post - LOVE Jeff Beck during his "Blow By Blow" and "Wired" phase - serious playing (in some ways the precursor to shredding), but with a lot of taste. One of my favorites:

**wolflen** · 10-14-2022, 07:50 PM

Don Felder..who wrote a song I cant stand to hear these days..as it was over played for years

Hotel Nevada..

**frankhond** · 10-15-2022, 03:00 AM

I first heard this when I was like 20… and still remember that moment. Hadn’t heard anything like it. And that album remains an outlier, Megadeth made nothing even remotely close.

Marty Friedman went on to become a star in Japan. There is a video where he talks about chord changes in J-pop, and demonstrates some seemingly never ending chord progression with unusual harmonies.

**Christian Miller** · 10-15-2022, 05:15 AM

One thing I love about Marty is he is such a linear player, it’s never about sheer speed for its own sake

**Litterick** · 10-15-2022, 06:48 AM

Sally Gates

She was on the radio this morning: quantum physics inspired jazz metal fusion. She used to play in Auckland metal bands. She now leads bands in New York. She is playing the Wellington Jazz festival. She says, "There's a lot of harmonic language that's actually similar between metal chords and jazz chords, they use similar intervals or extended chords, there's also a certain pursuit of virtuosity or technique too."

**Christian Miller** · 10-15-2022, 07:22 AM

Shred players are all a lot more linear and jazz-like now to my ears (well actually now it’s all Polyphia with the kiddies, but that’s another story). I think Guthrie has a lot to do with that. He plays a lot of bop sounding stuff and I think he’s been a big influence on younger players.

This is a case in point

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 10-15-2022, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

One thing I love about Marty is he is such a linear player, it’s never about sheer speed for its own sake

Does that apply for you in his playing in Cacophony (see above) as well?

BTW it is a funny that Metallica’s Kirk Hammet through being taught by Joe Satriani is indirectly a student of Billy Bauer and Lennie Tristano.

**Christian Miller** · 10-15-2022, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

Does that apply for you in his playing in Cacophony (see above) as well?1”

Tbh I find it hard to get through more than 30s of cacophony, so I’ll leave that up to you. Not my cup of tea. Not that Megadeth is so much either, but I listened to it a lot as a teen. i do find MD quite classic pop now after the whole direction metal took after. Lots of classic chord progs even GASB sometimes.

I find Marty’s playing generally pretty tasteful but that’s not really the vibe so much with speed metal symphony is it? But isn’t Jason Becker is the guy all the shredders squee about? Tragic story.

BTW it is a funny that Metallica’s Kirk Hammet through being taught by Joe Satriani is indirectly a student of Billy Bauer and Lennie Tristano.

yeah Kirk said he got into jazz as a result of studying with Joe iirc. I’m not sure if really shows up in his playing tho.

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 10-15-2022, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Sally Gates

She was on the radio this morning: quantum physics inspired jazz metal fusion. She used to play in Auckland metal bands. She now leads bands in New York. She is playing the Wellington Jazz festival. She says, "There's a lot of harmonic language that's actually similar between metal chords and jazz chords, they use similar intervals or extended chords, there's also a certain pursuit of virtuosity or technique too."

This reminds me of Fantômas, a project by Faith No More singer Mike Patton with Slayer drummer Dave Lombardo, Melvins guitarist Buzz Osborne and bassist Trevor Dunn from Patton’s other project Mr Bungle.

**Litterick** · 10-15-2022, 07:50 AM

Jazz should give itself more credit for being so open to musicians from other genres.

**ruger9** · 10-15-2022, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Jazz should give itself more credit for being so open to musicians from other genres.

HAHAHA. Good one! But then, it easy to say the same thing about rock players. In the end, ALL genres need to be abolished, and we need to just discuss MUSIC. Because it's not about genre, it's about good music. All of my favorite players listened to many different genres. Isolating yourself to only one (even if we are talking only listening) is limiting.

Of course no one listens to everything, personally I can't tolerate even a little bit of rap or hip hop. But I listen to jazz (all the way back to the 20s), blues, bluegrass, rock, country, guitar instrumental (could be any genre), "coffee shop", acoustic instrumental, big band/swing, jump blues, pop, cuban... I'm sure I'm forgetting something...

**BWV** · 10-15-2022, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by ruger9

This whole "flurry of notes" criticism about the shredders... I get it. I also get that this is a jazz forum. However, of all genre players, JAZZ players should understand the "too many notes" thing, or more specifically, the "using a flurry of notes to carry a very simple melody", as they are the KINGS of that. Nothing wrong with a flurry of notes, done right. Malmsteen was that, back in the day. Vai still does it.

You just have to put aside the "gunshot drums" lol... there's a great melody there. And you can't not admire the level of technique required. Don't enjoy it? That's fine. But you can't say it doesn't take boatloads of technique and talent, or that there's no melody.

Muhammed Suiçmez took this in an interesting direction

**BWV** · 10-15-2022, 10:28 AM

Johan Smith is an insanely good shredder - after winning the GFA a couple of years ago is now pursuing a classical career

**EllenGtrGrl** · 10-15-2022, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

Does that apply for you in his playing in Cacophony (see above) as well?

BTW it is a funny that Metallica’s Kirk Hammet through being taught by Joe Satriani is indirectly a student of Billy Bauer and Lennie Tristano.

Honestly, when I bought "Rust in Peace" (shortly after it was released), and learned Marty Friedman had joined the band, I kind of groaned. I expected the album to be shades of Cacophony sound-wise. I was pleasantly surprised when that didn't turn out to be the case. Marty's playing was so much more developed IMO - it was very much not a case of "watch me shred", and more a case of "wow! the solo makes the song even more intense than it already was!" IMO it was probably due to Marty maturing as a player. The same thing happened to Jason Backer (the other half of Cacophony - it's too bad that ALS robbed him of his ability to play guitar, who knows what he might have done on the instrument).

**Litterick** · 10-15-2022, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

HAHAHA. Good one!

I was not joking.

**Peter C** · 10-15-2022, 03:42 PM

Nothing to see here IMO, with the exception of Jan Akkerman and Jeff Beck, as posted by Graham.

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 10-15-2022, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Jazz should give itself more credit for being so open to musicians from other genres.

This just popped up (not directly related to rock but to Litterick’s post)

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 10-15-2022, 06:32 PM

**Litterick** · 10-15-2022, 07:02 PM

In the Reader's Digest, of all places:

"Today's UK jazz musicians have grown up acknowledging and utilising their audience's listening tastes, which strongly influence and are placed at the forefront of audio soundscapes enhanced by contemporary genres such as broken beat, afrobeat, drum & bass, trap and grime."

I am not sure what that means, but it seems inclusive.

**Boss Man Zwiebelsohn** · 10-15-2022, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

In the Reader's Digest, of all places:

"Today's UK jazz musicians have grown up acknowledging and utilising their audience's listening tastes, which strongly influence and are placed at the forefront of audio soundscapes enhanced by contemporary genres such as broken beat, afrobeat, drum & bass, trap and grime."

I am not sure what that means, but it seems inclusive.

broken beat