JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 29) - Red Clay

[John A.]

Sunny-I mean first four bars of Sunny...
Cm7/Bbm7 Eb7/Abmaj7/Dm7b5 G7

Yes, I understand that. What I meant is that because the overall forms are different, you (well, I, anyway) have to structure a solo differently. In the backing track I used I felt like had I had no place to go with the short section of solo changes there, so I kept going through the head section. As opposed to playing over a chorus of Sunny, which is more of a journey.

[Triple_Jazz]

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this clip is very cool, I would really have loved this 20 years ago. My search on YouTube brought this clip below, I fast forward in about nine minutes and it’s over driven fast fingering kind of stuff, check it out at the 10 minute mark. Maybe it’s not the greatest representation of Kranz idk but solidified VH in my mind

[mr. beaumont]

Whaaa??? Don’t know Krantz? But he wrote the theme for JGO

I've heard him, but not at length.

Its funny, I dig playing jazz with a "rock" guitar tone, but I don't listen to anybody else that does, save for a little Sco (and even then, I prefer him "cleaner)

[ragman1]

Yes, I understand that. What I meant is that because the overall forms are different, you (well, I, anyway) have to structure a solo differently. In the backing track I used I felt like had I had no place to go with the short section of solo changes there, so I kept going through the head section. As opposed to playing over a chorus of Sunny, which is more of a journey.

Personally, all I meant was that in listening to what you were playing (and you weren't the only one) it just reminded me of Sunny, that's all. The ear said 'Oh, that's Sunny'. No in-depth analysis. Sorry to be so basic. I don't actually know the chords to Sunny :-)

[John A.]

this clip is very cool, I would really have loved this 20 years ago. My search on YouTube brought this clip below, I fast forward in about nine minutes and it’s over driven fast fingering kind of stuff, check it out at the 10 minute mark. Maybe it’s not the greatest representation of Kranz idk but solidified VH in my mind

I think both are representative of what he was doing at those times, and maybe with those combinations of people. He changes a lot, and his basic modus operandi is to improvise entirely. As in he doesn't play tunes; he makes up themes or motif's on the spot, and away they go. Also, I think his sound has gotten heavier over the last several years -- his 55-Bar rig was just a guitar and Deluxe Reverb + some modulation effects, but the more recent stuff has a lot more distortion.

I've heard him, but not at length.

Its funny, I dig playing jazz with a "rock" guitar tone, but I don't listen to anybody else that does, save for a little Sco (and even then, I prefer him "cleaner)

I've seen him a few times, in both his own groups and as a sideman (Steps Ahead, Steely Dan, I forget who else), and I have a couple of his live at the 55 Bar recordings that I listened to quite a bit. I haven't studied or transcribed or emulated him, but I think some has rubbed off. The times I've seen his groups, he played just a strat and a Deluxe reverb turned up a bit, and that's a sound I have gone after to a degree. I like having some hair/sustain in my tone regardless of the guitar I'm using (more of necessity with semi and soldibody, and a nice-to-have with an archtop), but when playing jazz I want that from the amp, not a pedal. I went through a pretty long period of listening to a lot of people who played with more of a rock sound, but I think that was kind of a function of being in NY in the 80s and 90s.

[ragman1]

Re. Krantz, I don't actually like a lot of 'noise' but when he does play notes I think his inventiveness is pretty impressive. And rhythmically awesome.

This one almost sounds like bluegrass with an electric guitar.

[TOMMO]

Alright...
Listened to all of the takes here and the standard being set is quite high - Kudos!
This type of tune and style of jazz is not exactly my cup of tea but since I didn't want to skip another one I had a go. So here's a bit o' noodling over the solo changes:

[ragman1]

Nice, Tommo. Thing is, what you're doing suits it perfectly :-)

[TOMMO]

Nice, Tommo. Thing is, what you're doing suits it perfectly :-)

Oh really? Thanks!

[kris]

There is a link for my wahwah version...
Red Clay-solo with wahwah effect

[DMgolf66]

[mr. beaumont]

If Jack isn't the most criminally overlooked player in jazz, he's at least in the top 5.

Dude has it ALL.

[ragman1]

I'm not convinced this is really a guitar sort of tune... more sax, trumpet, etc. Don't know what you think.

[kris]

Yes, I understand that. What I meant is that because the overall forms are different, you (well, I, anyway) have to structure a solo differently. In the backing track I used I felt like had I had no place to go with the short section of solo changes there, so I kept going through the head section. As opposed to playing over a chorus of Sunny, which is more of a journey.

Hi John,
There is an easy form for improvisation -I think..Like on Freddie Hubbard,B.Benson...The musicians play solos on the basis of 'Sunny'...:

[kris]

I'm not convinced this is really a guitar sort of tune... more sax, trumpet, etc. Don't know what you think.

Jack Wilkins can play it so what's the problem..?

[John A.]

Hi John,
There is an easy form for improvisation -I think..Like on Freddie Hubbard,B.Benson...The musicians play solos on the basis of 'Sunny'...:

Yes, I understand. But that's playing with a band where you have dynamics, variation in intensity, and responsiveness between musicians to make it interesting. All I'm saying is that when I played it with a backing track, I felt like I could do more and have more fun with the full form. I've played the tune live with bands and soloed with just the "Sunny" part and enjoyed that.

[John A.]

I'm not convinced this is really a guitar sort of tune... more sax, trumpet, etc. Don't know what you think.

I think the main thing is that it's a vehicle for a band to create interest through elements of musicianship and performance other than making melodies over changes. It works fine with non-horn instrumentation. But it's very challenging for a guy in a room with just an acoustic guitar and a computer.

[kris]

Yes, I understand. But that's playing with a band where you have dynamics, variation in intensity, and responsiveness between musicians to make it interesting. All I'm saying is that when I played it with a backing track, I felt like I could do more and have more fun with the full form. I've played the tune live with bands and soloed with just the "Sunny" part and enjoyed that.

I understand too.
All The Best
Kris

[kris]

I think the main thing is that it's a vehicle for a band to create interest through elements of musicianship and performance other than making melodies over changes. It works fine with non-horn instrumentation. But it's very challenging for a guy in a room with just an acoustic guitar and a computer.

The room with just an acoustic guitar and a computer is OK.
I think the biggest challenge is to play the melody with the thumb.
My 1 cent
Kris

[John A.]

The room with just an acoustic guitar and a computer is OK.
I think the biggest challenge is to play the melody with the thumb.
My 1 cent
Kris

And Rags is just the guy to meet that challenge. As Kipling wrote:

If you can bravely stroke with fleshy thumb where others jab with pointed pick

If you can meet fast tempos in half the time while pickers strive but fall behind

If you can articulate in mumbles and eschew the thunk and twang,

Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,

And—which is more—you’ll be a Ragman, my son!

[kris]

...so I only play with my thumb sometimes ... ;-)

[ragman1]

I think the main thing is that it's a vehicle for a band to create interest through elements of musicianship and performance other than making melodies over changes. It works fine with non-horn instrumentation. But it's very challenging for a guy in a room with just an acoustic guitar and a computer.

I know all that, but I think some tunes sound good with guitar and some don't. Miles Davis 'didn't like guitar' apparently. There's another thread with a young Wes Montgomery playing with a band. Personally I don't think that plinky-plink sound added anything to it at all although seeing him was interesting.


By the way, I liked your distortion effect a lot because it lifted it out of the one-note usual rut. After I heard that, days ago, I tried another version, thought it too thin, and opted for a wahwah effect because it made it sound like an organ. But let's be clear, I'm stuck with the equipment I've got so we make the best of it.

As for the thumb, again don't forget I'm no stranger to a pick. These days I just like to sit and thumb it because, like the classical stuff I used to play, I like being in direct touch with the strings; I find it brings out a better sense of melody. And it's never going to be fast.

While we're at it, I'm also averse to the competitive spirit. I find it aggressive and immature. The music should be done for its own sake, not in order to beat others. If you love a thing, you never compete because it's irrelevant.

So here's the wahwah file, created, according to the file, midday Tuesday. It can be the last blast. It's really an 'effect' rather than a solo as such, eight minutes non-stop, and no aeroplane. Turn it off when you've had enough :-)

[kris]

where is a music?

[John A.]

I know all that, but I think some tunes sound good with guitar and some don't. Miles Davis 'didn't like guitar' apparently. There's another thread with a young Wes Montgomery playing with a band. Personally I don't think that plinky-plink sound added anything to it at all although seeing him was interesting.

Maybe, though I have a feeling Earl Klugh or Gene Bertoncini could make anything work. Also, when I think of "jazz guitar" I mainly think in terms electric guitar + amp, with the amp as a key part of the sound, not just as a means of making an acoustic timbre louder. Amp color and sustain close the gap in articulation possibilities between horns and guitar considerably. Miles definitely liked guitar, or at least came to like it. (if not, that would have been a shock to Hendrix, McLaughlin, Sharrock, Cosey, Stern, Sco ...). SFAIK, there only one cut with him using a more "traditional" guitar (George Benson on "Paraphernalia"), but Jim Hall said in an interview that Miles called him a couple of times for sessions, but they couldn't work out the dates because of Hall's TV job.

By the way, I liked your distortion effect a lot because it lifted it out of the one-note usual rut. After I heard that, days ago, I tried another version, thought it too thin, and opted for a wahwah effect because it made it sound like an organ. But let's be clear, I'm stuck with the equipment I've got so we make the best of it.

I get that, and within your constraints, I agree more strongly that some tunes don't really work very well.

As for the thumb, again don't forget I'm no stranger to a pick. These days I just like to sit and thumb it because, like the classical stuff I used to play, I like being in direct touch with the strings; I find it brings out a better sense of melody. And it's never going to be fast.

I fully respect your right to choose your own tools and aesthetic, while fully reserving my right to give you s*it about it

While we're at it, I'm also averse to the competitive spirit. I find it aggressive and immature. The music should be done for its own sake, not in order to beat others. If you love a thing, you never compete because it's irrelevant.

So here's the wahwah file, created, according to the file, midday Tuesday. It can be the last blast. It's really an 'effect' rather than a solo as such, eight minutes non-stop, and no aeroplane. Turn it off when you've had enough :-)

No competition intended on my part. That wah wah sounds really cool, more like some kind of a synth than a guitar. It also seems to have more than just wah (some other modulation effect and compression?). Anyway, it works well in this context.

[edited to add the bit about Miles and the guitar]