Using The Jazz Minor Scale

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also, do you think inside and outside are absolute terms (modal triads only) or relative terms (relative to the actual or implied harmony)? If the chord is G7#5#9, then the Ab and Eb will sound more "inside" to me that A and E natural.

There is a unity to opposites.

As to the most inside, to my ear, it's C JM. I am on piano playing G7 to Cm, and G7+ to Cm (or just one of the G7's having played so many Cm's. All very inside notes. Even in that overdone scale theory you are immersed in, a C scale in the key of C ought to be pretty "inside."

I wasn't considering C JM. Nothing against it, but it's cut from a different cloth.

[Aristotle]

There is a unity to opposites.

Or you got caught again.

I wasn't considering C JM. Nothing against it, but it's cut from a different cloth.

Fascinating. The JM isn't even "closely related" to the JM. Then again, maybe there is unity in different cloths. Or night is day or up is down.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Night and Day!

[franamico]

I have been going through Emily Remler's lessons. She goes into detail about playing the jazz minor, either a perfect 5th above the chord or a b2 above the chord (depending on if the chord is resolving). Do any of you use this method? Is is used sparingly or heavily?

Here's how I use the Jazz Melodic Minor Scale:

• Over minor major chords (built on the root)
• Over altered chords (starting half a tone from the root of the chord. You can call this the "superlocrian" scale)
• Over dominant b5 chords (starting a perfect fifth above the root of the chord

Good luck

Francesco

[Aristotle]

Night and Day!

but "there is unity in opposites."

---
Does anyone know the origin of the idea that the melodic minor scale should descend as the aeolian mode?

Back in the day, some said it was because that's how Bach used it, but Bach used it all three ways.

[Aristotle]

the augmented 2nd from b6 to #7 was considered problematic for singers, and carried connotations of non-european music, hence was largely avoided. in an ascending melodic line, this was achieved by #6.

Are you sure the harmonic minor is non-European, rather than Eastern European?

Also, does that book provide sufficient musical samples of all that stuff you said? Because there is quite a bit of literature that is directly on point, like
http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/availa...5001499382.pdf

A more guitar-oriented example would be Bach's Em Bouree. In measures 4 and 5, the ascending C# and D#, descend as D and C. But if you analyze the harmony, the descending D and C over and F#, moving to B over G are a modulation to G major.

Then, there is the Chromatic Fantasy. Bach covers most combinations. He uses all four notes (major and minor 6th, major and minor 7th) in both directions (ascending and descending). And quite a bit of that in the first two meausures. The "jazz minor" must be in there somewhere.
He also ends an Em arpeggio with the chord E-B-D#-A-C-F#.

[Reg]

When we talk jazz...It's been common practice since 60's to refer to melodic min. as same set of notes ascending and descending as Randall posted earlier.
The use of the MM up a 5th, or up a 1/2 step on Dom.7th chords has been been one of the most used harmonic modal interchange techniques in jazz for the past 50 years. There part of the basic vocabulary of jazz. If you don't use or understand the concepts... your still a rock or pop player. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you want to play jazz... that's one of the basics and will open the door to many other harmonic and melodic concepts.
When we use modal interchange to come up with other collections of notes for our Dom. 7th chords, as in mercybeat's example of II7 chord,(G7) in Girl from Ipanema, MMup a 4th, sometimes it's simpler to just call the chord G7b13, or more specific to your version, G9b13, which implies the 5th mode of C MM or MM up a 4th from the G7 chord. ( although the Eb's pretty hard on the ear, if the melody is still in your ears ) My point is it's simpler to think of versions of Dom. 7th chords than go through the process of thinking of MM up some interval etc. Correct labeling of Dom. chords imply that whole process of finding where the collection of notes come from.
Reg

[lkmuller]

Good point and I agree. When I play a jazz minor against a resolving dominant I picture an alt chord, around which the jazz minor naturally flows. when I'm playing a jazz minor against a non resolving dominant, I do, however, picture the minor/maj7 chord a 5th above (Dm/maj7 against a G7).

[merseybeat]

Take G7 as an example. You can play the Ab diminished scale over G7:

G Ab Bb Cb C# D E F G

Four related jazz minors, written G-G:

Ab JM: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G
D JM: G A B C# D E F G
F JM: G Ab Bb C D E F G
B JM: G# A# B C# D E F# G#

In each case, you can get the JM scale from the diminished scale by replacing two notes with the bold note.

This is not my idea. I got it from Pat Martino.

Hi BDLH, This has gotten me really confused Its the B JM idea! and that F# note (Major 7th). ?? The up a fourth C JM over G7alt is the other use isn't it?

Regards

Eddie

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Hi BDLH, This has gotten me really confused Its the B JM idea! and that F# note (Major 7th). ?? The up a fourth C JM over G7alt is the other use isn't it?

The BJM over G7 doesn't fit that well, if you are looking at it statically. It's more of a pattern thing (DJM->FJM->AbJM->BJM).

CJM over G7 works find, especially over G7#5, but it doesn't arise from this pattern.

[Aristotle]

if you are looking at it statically.

Isn't that the problem with all this chord-scale preoccupation? Music isn't static.

[Aristotle]

The use of the MM up a 5th, or up a 1/2 step on Dom.7th chords has been been one of the most used harmonic modal interchange techniques in jazz for the past 50 years.

When I first studied jazz, no one said jazz minor up a fifth - and it was less than 50 years ago.

After that, you
1) inadvertently(?) imply it doesn't always work?

but if you want to play jazz... that's one of the basics and will open the door to many other harmonic and melodic concepts.

When we use modal interchange to come up with other collections of notes for our Dom. 7th chords, as in mercybeat's example of II7 chord,(G7) in Girl from Ipanema, MMup a 4th, sometimes it's simpler to just call the chord G7b9, or more specific to your version, G13b9, which implies the 5th mode of C MM or MM up a 4th from the G7 chord. ( although the Eb's pretty hard on the ear, if the melody is still in your ears )

Oops, looks like it opened a trap door that time. As Yogi Berra, or some other person known for using malprops once said, "Sometimes, it don't always work."

and
2) that it's unecessarily complicated

it's simpler to think of versions of Dom. 7th chords than go through the process of thinking of MM up some interval etc.

Good point. I tried to make the same point in posts 56, 67, and 76 (which someone is likely to infer is an 11th sub, as the posts are 11 apart).

I find the Remler "D jazz minor" lesson on YouTube to be (unintentionally deceptive. At 5:25 of tube 3, she starts to play the C scale lifelessly from G to G, to show how Mixolydian over the G13 doesn't really do it for her. Then, for constrast, she launches in nicely swung and practiced phrases using the #11 arpeggio to show the power of the magic scale.

Well, what if she did that the other way around? Play the D jazz minor as a lifeless scale, and contrast that with lively, well-practiced uppe-extension arpeggio phrases that stay inside the Mixolydian. Then, which one sounds like the magic scale?

What if one took a more sound, scientific and musical approach? Just play the same lines Remler demonstrates, alternating one pass with C-nat, then one with C#?
D-F-A-C#-E-D
D-F-A-C-E-D
This seems like a better way of learning to hear and use the #11.

[Aristotle]

if you want to understand the subject, look a little deeper than a college student's thesis.

Thank you for your lengthy response. Actually, it was a simple question that could take a short answer, but if you don't know, you don't know.

While it is oft repeated, like by Remler and Coryell YouTubes on jazz minor that the melodic minor has different ascending and descending forms; can anyone cite the composers and works that established or recognize this tradition? Or is it a myth?

I can remember objecting to the melodic minor, right from my first classical lesson with the Segovia scales. Fortuneately, my mentor said, "so go ahead and use the major 6th and 7th in both directions." Even then, the idea that one scale ascending and another scale descending was one scale, and not two, didn't mesh with my gears. And since then, I don't remember ever hearing a song that uses it (them) that way.

[FatJeff]

Just play the same lines Remler demonstrates, alternating one pass with C-nat, then one with C#?
D-F-A-C#-E-D
D-F-A-C-E-D
This seems like a better way of learning to hear and use the #11.

To be honest with you, when I first saw the Remler lesson on altered dominants and the lydian dominant scale, I thought it was 'magic' - but I found that putting it into practice wasn't quite so smooth. Sure, now you don't have to memorize all the modes of MM, but now you have to remember to either transpose the MM scale up a half step or up a 5th. I've just found that it is easier (for me, at least), to learn the altered scale as just another scale, and the lydian dominant scale as just another scale, and use those notes over the appropriate dom7 chords.

What I did take away from her lesson, though, was the fact that there are two types of dominants: those that resolve down by 5th to the tonic, and those that don't. I still use that knowledge when picking whether I want to play from the altered scale or the lydian dominant scale.

[Reg]

Check out my last post, I wrote G7b9... should have been G7b13. Sorry , the G13b9 would have been Har. Maj. If you noticed I mentioned the Eb, you probably understood what I was making reference to.
Hey Aristotle... yea when I was 1st introduced to jazz, I simply liked the altered notes. Didn't think of source or why my ears liked the sound. But now as jazz is beginning to have a history and with tons of analysis, different techniques and use of harmonic or melodic materials are recognizable which leads to methodology, which leads to differences of opinions. When I play... I don't think theoretical approaches, I trust my ear. But when a soloist hints at a melodic or harmonic source, I usually will follow and interact with his direction of development. When I compose or arrange a score, Big band chart or even when writing out simple original small ensemble charts, I do try and use proper or understandable notation. I don't use #5 when the note is from 5th degree of MM or HM etc... I try and do this to let the players who understand that direction of theoretical material do there thing. Unless every note is spelled out there are choices as to what will work in musical situations, what terminology we chose etc...
I personally like the Berklee methods, I graduated back in the 70's after I had already been through a traditional music program. I was playing tons of jazz gigs before I went to Berklee, and already had an approach that worked. Berklee simply gave me more approaches. If you like your approach, what's wrong with that... I can understand what you imply.
More later ... best Reg

[gingerjazz]

ive mentioned this before but a great book that uses this method of allways relating back to the melodic minor scale is an introduction to jazz soloing by the musicians institute remember almost everything in melodic minor harmony is interchangeable with everything else also mark levines book on jazz theory covers this in great depth

[Aristotle]

Check out my last post, I wrote G7b9... should have been G7b13. Sorry , the G13b9 would have been Har. Maj. If you noticed I mentioned the Eb, you probably understood what I was making reference to.

I took it the other way around - that the Eb note was the misspeak and the b9 chord was what you meant. I sometimes use the chord Ab-B-D-G in the third measure for chord melody, if I don't need to play the bass. I think that's some type of b9, but not an Ab min.

I personally like the Berklee methods

I don't know enough about them. I worked through some Leavitt books from that time.

On that thing you said before about "jazz minor" being around for 50 years, I looked in the Joe Pass "Style" book. He refers to adding the b9 and #9 to the whole-tone scale. Enharmonically, to a G7, that's Ab minor. Were they calling that a "jazz minor" when you went to Berklee?

[FatJeff]

On that thing you said before about "jazz minor" being around for 50 years, I looked in the Joe Pass "Style" book. He refers to adding the b9 and #9 to the whole-tone scale. Enharmonically, to a G7, that's Ab minor. Were they calling that a "jazz minor" when you went to Berklee?

Emily Remler claims on her instructional DVD that this is a Berklee term. All it is is the "ascending form" of melodic minor (as defined by the classical folks) both up and down.

I'm no expert on music history, but it's also my understanding that the use of melodic minor blossomed with Debussy, Ravel, and friends. Can anyone verify that and maybe point me to some piece to listen to? Still trying to get this sound in my head.

[lkmuller]

It seems to have been a Berklee term. I've worked with several Berklee cats and they all refer to it as the jazz minor. I had a hard time opening up my ears to it in the beginning too, but now find it an invaluable tool, not only for negotiating resolving V-I's, but for non resolving dominants.

In the progression I - I7 - IV - IVm - III - VI - II - V - I, for example, I use the JM against the IVm, which actually implies a bVII dominant, against the VI (1/2 step above), and against the V (1/2 step above.

As an aside, I took classical guitar for a bout 6 months about 10 years ago and found it very excrutiatingly difficult, lol. I wish I had reached the point where I could make it sound as good as you do. I stopped when I was telling my instructor one day how I sometimes use a Lydian over the last chord of a tune and his response was (harummphh....yep, he actually said harummphh....I guess if you play it fast enough it may sound ok). I knew that dude didn't have any place in my musical world.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I stopped when I was telling my instructor one day how I sometimes use a Lydian over the last chord of a tune and his response was (harummphh....yep, he actually said harummphh....I guess if you play it fast enough it may sound ok). I knew that dude didn't have any place in my musical world.

I know that feeling well. On the Tele forum, they were talking about harmonizing a melody by playing two notes at a time, playing the second note above the melody. Okay so far... Then the example included a melody note F over G7; most of the time the example was about playing thirds, but playing A+F was rejected in favor of G+F because "A over G7 was too dissonant". 9ths are dissonant? They're about as consonant as you get! Oh, well, different musics, different ears...

[FatJeff]

I know that feeling well. On the Tele forum, they were talking about harmonizing a melody by playing two notes at a time, playing the second note above the melody. Okay so far... Then the example included a melody note F over G7; most of the time the example was about playing thirds, but playing A+F was rejected in favor of G+F because "A over G7 was too dissonant". 9ths are dissonant? They're about as consonant as you get! Oh, well, different musics, different ears...

Ya gotta remember that in a lot of circles (classical, bluegrass and country), anything other than 1-3-5 is pretty much dissonant (not counting a functional V7). It's all a matter of what you're used to, and how open your mind is to new sounds. I know plenty of people who grew up on mashed potatoes, meatloaf and canned green beans. That's what they still eat, 7 nights a week. Me...I still love that stuff...but I would go out of my mind if I couldn't go out for sushi or enchiladas or the occasional moussaka.

[lkmuller]

haha..................well put, Jeff.

[FatJeff]

haha..................well put, Jeff.

:-) And thanks for the compliment earlier.

[gingerjazz]

i think its in mark levines book where he states that the evelution of western music can be summed up as the gradual acceptance of dissonant tones just my two peneth ( oh yeagh im from yorkshire)

[Aristotle]

Dissonance is a relative and muti-dimensional idea.

Is G9 dissonant? Is the Ab-JM or flat-five sub dissonant?
Go to a piano and play F-G-A-B at the same time.
Then try the Remler reccomendation for II-V-I: Key of C for four beats, Ab minor for four beats, key of C for four beats.
Which one sounds more dissonant?