Using The Jazz Minor Scale

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

So the jazz minor and the melodic minor are just different names for the same scale?

What RandallJazz said in reply #23, but I'd add that a lot of people will say "Melodic minor" when they mean "Jazz minor". Context.

[FatJeff]

I actually have a video lesson I'll send you

Hey Jazzy, I'd like a copy of that video too, please. This is one of the things I'm working on right now.

[merseybeat]

like in "Girl from Ipanema" where the ii chord becomes a G7

I find the "up a 4th" works well over these II7 scenarios - i.e. G7 - C Jazz Minor and outlining that B Augmented arp! Try it, its wow!

Eddie

Eddie

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Nice idea, soooo, you sayin' that against a G7 you like to take an appropriate JM "idea" and move it around in minor thirds- except that 25% of the time it's gonna sound horrible? See, in the heat of the moment I'd find it too hard to work out which one to avoid! Any tips for that (and please don't say "yeah- use your ears!"- my ears are only good for "hey, I just played something naff" as opposed to "watch out, don't play that, it's gonna sound like a bunch of arse!"....).

No, I'm saying that the B Jazz minor will have "tension" over G7. The thing with what I was doing is that it was a static analysis: just thinking about how the scale notes would sound against the G7 chord. Playing is a more dynamic experience: you are playing ideas that are in movement; it's okay for that to include some tension.

For example, here is a Coltrane-like turnaround pattern over G7, which is the chords Dmi, Fmi Abmi, Bmi to C. The Bmi (and its F#) fits into that idea so it sounds right.



-----------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
-------2-------5-|---3-4---4-6-7---|-----5---
---2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
-5---------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-----------------|---------

[princeplanet]

No, I'm saying that the B Jazz minor will have "tension" over G7. The thing with what I was doing is that it was a static analysis: just thinking about how the scale notes would sound against the G7 chord. Playing is a more dynamic experience: you are playing ideas that are in movement; it's okay for that to include some tension.

For example, here is a Coltrane-like turnaround pattern over G7, which is the chords Dmi, Fmi Abmi, Bmi to C. The Bmi (and its F#) fits into that idea so it sounds right.



-----------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
-------2-------5-|---3-4---4-6-7---|-----5---
---2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
-5---------------|-----------------|---------
-----------------|-----------------|---------

I tried to straighten the bar lines a little... nice one bigdaddy! The f# seems to work because it's part of a sequential idea which gets to be most tensioned at the very end (like all good alt lines!), plus it's passing nicely to C's 5th. I don't really hear the clash against G's flat 7th, but possibly would if B mins (and it's f#) occurred earlier in the sequence.

Dmin / Fmin Abmin / Bmin C
----------------|------------------|---------
----------------|-------4-------7-|-8-5-----
------2-------5.|---3-4---4-6-7--|-----5---
-2-3---3-5-6---|-6---------------|-------7-
5---------------|------------------|---------
----------------|------------------|---------

[richb2]

Emily says that her method makes everything into a 2-5. How does that work? Say in G7 going to Cm7 going to D7. I'd solo in D jazz minor over the G7. Then I would solo in C# jazz minor over the Cm7. How is that a 2-5?

[bako]

The minor scale is a half step above the dominant chord not the minor.
So Ab jazz minor for G7, possibly Eb jazz minor for D7 depending on where it resolves.
The progression given isn't a II V. It is possibly V7 Im7 and V7 of something (example doesn't finish)
You can expand a V7 I or a II I into II V I or do the reverse if you want to simplify.

[Jazzyteach65]

it makes everything a ii-V like this: there is a princaple called "dodeckaponics" or common tonalaties for the sake of substitutions. Ultimately, every V7 and ii-are interchangable.

Perhaps the most common progression, even more so than the ii-V-I is the non-resolving ii-V. You may find chomatically descending ii-V's or even random V chords that don't reslove down a fifth. Think of those Dom7 chords and treat them as a "category 1" ii-V

For example, if you take fourth measure of "Take the A Train," the chord is a D7 that goes to d-, Think of it as an a minor to D7, using the jazz minor up a fifth.

You see that if you consider each Dom7 that does not resolve with an imaginary ii coming before it, it might make sense

[richb2]

Emily says that her method makes everything into a 2-5. How does that work? Say in G7 going to Cm7 going to D7. I'd solo in D jazz minor over the G7. Then I would solo in C# jazz minor over the Cm7. How is that a 2-5?

You are right. I have it backwards.

[richb2]

it makes everything a ii-V like this: there is a princaple called "dodeckaponics" or common tonalaties for the sake of substitutions. Ultimately, every V7 and ii-are interchangable.

Perhaps the most common progression, even more so than the ii-V-I is the non-resolving ii-V. You may find chomatically descending ii-V's or even random V chords that don't reslove down a fifth. Think of those Dom7 chords and treat them as a "category 1" ii-V

For example, if you take fourth measure of "Take the A Train," the chord is a D7 that goes to d-, Think of it as an a minor to D7, using the jazz minor up a fifth.

You see that if you consider each Dom7 that does not resolve with an imaginary ii coming before it, it might make sense

I really don't understand this explanation.

[merseybeat]

Cool! and funny thing is there is only one note difference linking all these scales! Its nice to have all these options available! Also JM and HM - they both contain the afore mentioned Aug arps (G altered scale and G Phrygian Major). Try it and your Joe Passing

Yeah sorry about that leebingate! Badly worded I'm afraid

What I meant to say was there is only one note difference between say C Ionian and C JM and again there is only one note difference between JM and HM...

Ionian 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
JM 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
HM 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7

Then I was suggesting that I personally like to sub a Gaug over a G7alt (V of CMaj) and that G altered (JM 7th mode) and G Phrygian Major (HM 5th mode) both give me the G Augmented sound I so crave! (I can also use G Ionian #5 (3rd mode of HM) - G Ultralocrian and of course all of the JM ideas in this thread)

I also like to side step "other chords" with these ideas.. i.e ii V I in CMaj

ii chord (Dm, Db Aug, Dm7)

I chord (Cmaj7, B Aug, C6/9 etc). and use ideas from above over the aug chord.

To my ears it gives me a logical sense of movement when stepping outside and back in!

And as Im a lazy barsteward I only have to know my arpeggios and my 3 favorite scales (5 positions). Major, JM and HM, because I have the chord tones in my head the modes for all these scales naturally fall into place!

Again my theory isn't that strong but I am having fun!

Kindest regards

Eddie

[merseybeat]

Here's a little JM demo I knocked up, apologies for the quality but I just plugged into my desk and ran some JM ideas over a simple ii V I backing in n Bb (and an up a 4th modulation to keep it moving).
Its pretty linear just to get the idea!

Eddie

PS the guitar used is my new Gibson 137 Custom Gold! Accompnyment courtesy of BIAB

[richb2]

Here's a little JM demo I knocked up, apologies for the quality but I just plugged into my desk and ran some JM ideas over a simple ii V I backing in n Bb (and an up a 4th modulation to keep it moving).
Its pretty linear just to get the idea!

Eddie

PS the guitar used is my new Gibson 137 Custom Gold! Accompnyment courtesy of BIAB

That was great, thanks. A basic question.

1) I can hear the note you are landing on at the end of each "statement". The other notes, leading to the landing note, are they within the JM or are they chromatics (or both)?

[merseybeat]

Hi Rich, thanks!
I use both! All of the statements used are JM ideas (Different modes).
If you where just to use the scale on its own it would become boring pretty quickly. But I would like to try and explain my thought process when playing.
Take the altered scale for example, it works well but I never hear anybody playing a G7b5#5b9#9 chord so therefore I don't have to play every altered note from this scale, but I still use the scale as a skeleton for ideas!

Now the chromatics!

A normal selection for a V chord would be a simple Mixolydian scale
1,2,3,4,5,6,b7

And now I have my altered scale

1,b2,b3,3,b5,b6,b7

If I superimpose them I get

1,b2,2,b3,3,4,b5,5,b6,6,b7

So now I know that with a little planning I can basically use anything as long as I outline the chord of interest!

Again this is just my thought process and will probably horrify some of my peers here!

To me the JM and its modes are an absolute essential, they are very flexible and with a little planning are very rewarding!

As a final note try this with the other available JM modes

Lydian Dominant 1,2,3,b5,5,6,b7
Mixolydian b6 1,2,3,4,5,#5,b7

Also remember you can alter any scale to fit your need or mood!


Hope that helps

Eddie

[Jazzyteach65]

I really don't understand this explanation.

Whenever you have an arbitrary/non-resolving 7th chord (dominant) you can think of it as a quick ii-V using the jazz minor up a fifth.

THIS ACTUALLY MAKES IT EASIER THAN IT IS! What it does is it makes you think and approach the non-resloving dom7 chord from a fifth up. If you think about it, a fifth up from the 7th chord is a ii- chord.

You have probably seen a lot of non-resolving ii-V's

Ex: in "Four" by Miles Davis, there is a sequence of non-resolving g-C7,f#-B7,f-Bb7, each of these are ii-V's that last a measure each and don't resolve. You can simplify it and rethink of this progression as C7,B7, Bb7. What scales do you use on those chords? The jazz minor a fifth up!

So C7=G jazz minor, making it a ii-V using g jazz minor ect

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Ex: in "Four" by Miles Davis, there is a sequence of non-resolving g-C7,f#-B7,f-Bb7, each of these are ii-V's that last a measure each and don't resolve. You can simplify it and rethink of this progression as C7,B7, Bb7. What scales do you use on those chords? The jazz minor a fifth up!

There are a few different ways to view this. Again, suppose you have a ii-V progression:

|Gmi7 / C7 /|

If you play the "jazz minor a fifth up" on C7, that's the G jazz minor. Playing G jazz minor over Gmin7-C7 amounts to "ignoring" the V7 and playing over the ii7, a la Pat Martino.

If the progression is just C7 you can still mentally sub Gmin7 over the first half of that and repeat my comments.

[myburgh]

Hi, new to this site. Merseybeat? I just downloaded your mp3 example, it sounds very complicated however its brilliant playing and technique, great sound too. I really like your idea of Altering a mixolydian scale to add color instead of playing a naked altered scale. Quick question if I may? How do I do this for the other JM modes? Also is this your own approach or is there a resource available anywhere?

JM

[merseybeat]

Hi JM, thanks!
Basically keep it simple! focus on the chord and where its going next.. The guys here have given some excellent pointers! A Mixolydian will always fit nicely over a dominant chord! So I tend to just alter this scale to my current mood! Each JM mode has a specific colour so again alter what you like!

A good resourse is here

Bebop scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Go down to the bottom of the page! There is some excellent ideas! After playing with some of these hybrids you will realize anything is possible!
My biggest step forward was a little advice from Mimi Fox! "If your ears are telling you its right? Then it is"!

Also check out that 8tone spanish scale.. No one writes about this scale but I hear it an awful lot. Probably because its a natural chromatic choice added to an altered scale and never really analysed? (I really dont know???) But hell it sounds cool!

Eddie

[merseybeat]

There are a few different ways to view this. Again, suppose you have a ii-V progression:

|Gmi7 / C7 /|

If you play the "jazz minor a fifth up" on C7, that's the G jazz minor. Playing G jazz minor over Gmin7-C7 amounts to "ignoring" the V7 and playing over the ii7, a la Pat Martino.

If the progression is just C7 you can still mentally sub Gmin7 over the first half of that and repeat my comments.

Thanks BDLH.. again you make it so easy!

Also is the tri-tone concept related?

G7alt = C#7alt

C# Altered scale = D Jazz Minor

D Jazz Minor is a 5th up from the original G7

Eddie

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Thanks BDLH.. again you make it so easy!

Also is the tri-tone concept related?

G7alt = C#7alt

C# Altered scale = D Jazz Minor

D Jazz Minor is a 5th up from the original G7

Eddie

I think you just chased your tail full circle there! Recall the original post. The two "most obvious" jazz minor scales to play over G7 are D jazz minor and Ab jazz minor -- and D and Ab are a tritone apart. And what are the two jazz minor scales for Db7? Once again, D and Ab jazz minor. There's your tritone working for you.

[merseybeat]

Sorry BDLH must have missed that post? then again there are 47 of them now! so sorry for asking!

I do know when to shut up apologies!

Eddie

[merseybeat]

Ah yes, the four minor horsemen of the Apocalicks. Over G7 we have:

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

This reminds me of another idea, if I could tug on your ear for a moment.

Start with G7 and add the b9. If you play this without the root, the result is a diminished seventh chord:

4x343x or xx3434

As we know, diminished seventh chords are so symmetrical that their inversions repeat every 3 frets:

7x676x or xx6767
etc...

If we had started with E7, Db7 or Bb7 we would have ended up with the same diminished seventh chord.

So G7, E7, Db7 and Bb7 are related in this way. I'm sure you college boys have some fancy, dessicated name for it, but I call these chords kissing cousins, because there is some relationship between them, but there is also some fooling around going on, too.

The bottom line for me is that I can take note patterns (or scales etc...) and raise or lower them multiples of a minor third (3 frets) and they still work to some extent against the original chord.

Back to the original example: those four minor scales ...

D JM
Ab JM
F JM
C JM

One doesn't fit the kissing cousin pattern -- C JM. If we were moving things up and down minor thirds, we would have ended up with B JM intead. Thinking of playing either against G7:

C JM: G A B C D Eb F G
B JM: G# A# B C# D E F# G#

The C JM is a safe bet while the B JM is an edgy choice, especially with the F#-G# notes -- no root for G7 plus that leading tone. In moments like this, I ask myself: what would Pat Martino do?

However this was a very informative post and I thank you for it!

If I may ask your opinion on this? (And please remember I am stuck in a desert approx 2 Km from the middle of no-where with only you guys to help me )

Your diminished minor 3rds works well! Now I love the augmented sound, so an altered G7 I like to replace with a Gaug.

Now G aug has all the tones of a G7b13 and I know that G aug repeats itself every two whole tones so I sometimes run my JM ideas up two whole tones - then another and back to my original and it works (Its actually quite humorous).

Your feedback is most welcome or is all this sun making me crazy?

Regards

Eddie

[Meggy]

This whole jazz minor up a 5th, or up a semitone thing is interesting to me. I know Emily Remler advocated this idea (and I have enormous respect for her playing) but I find it easier for me to think in terms of Lydian Dominant and Altered scales - i.e. the same notes, but I don't have to think about transposing anything. I guess I'm influenced in this by what Ted Greene has to say in his books on single note soloing. But I'm just interested to know what people think are the pros and cons of the two approaches!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Now G aug has all the tones of a G7b13 and I know that G aug repeats itself every two whole tones so I sometimes run my JM ideas up two whole tones - then another and back to my original and it works (Its actually quite humorous).

Interesting. When I'm thinking GAug, I sometimes do the simplest sort of whole-tone scale thing, like:




----3-5---------7----------------------------
--4-----6-----8------------------------------
4---------6-8--------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------



but to my ear, a little whole-tone scale goes a long way and I don't want it to overstay its welcome.

[Jazzyteach65]

Rich, one thing that I as well as others said earlier on this thread, you shouldn't really be thunking in terms of scales, but rather sounds.

"Jazz" is a language, and what is unique to that language is what we call "colors." Colors are extensions (9ths, 11ths 13ths ect) and altered tones (b's and #'s) Traditionally, classical and western thoery dictates that these colors are "wrong notes," but these colors create tension and resolution. If you think of all the altered tones mixed with extensions over a dominant, you will arive at really three or four possibilities, dim, 7th mode of jazz minor, fourth mode of jazz minor, fifth mode of harmonic minor ect. Now to practice all these combinations and not get the generall tensions derrived from these possibilities would be ludacris.

What I'm trying to say is to work on these ideas enough to where you don't have to think anything but recognize what altered/extension you hear in your mind. Ex: If you play a iim7b5-V7alt-i, you could use mode VI of jazz minor on the iim7b5, mode VII of jazz minor on V7 and jazz minor on i. Imagine how frustrating that would be!

Here is a great video to make thinking easier