"Joe Pass Guitar Style" Rhythm Changes #1

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think perfectly even 8ths are the goal either, that's not what I'm trying to help Lawson do-- in the long run. I just think he needed to even those "ands" out a bit so he can eventually accent at will, not just in a pattern dictated by the strength of his upstrokes.

[Dutchbopper]

there is a red cassette tape where he plays all the stuff. i think i got it from aebersold mail order via american friends in the 80s. iirc carol kaye used to sell it too.

Wow. Too cool. Must get that one somewhere.

DB

[Dutchbopper]

Joe Pass - Guitar Style (Cassette, US, 1987) Zu verkaufen | Discogs

Nothing digital? I have no cassette player anymore ...


DB

Is it his one?

[Tal_175]

Nothing digital? I have no cassette player anymore ...


DB

Is it his one?

You can hear his voice introducing the etudes. It's definitely him. Good find.

[lawson-stone]

heads up Lawson; this is one of those areas where you are going to find apparently conflicting advice from different people.

I agree with basically all of what djg says here; however I’m not certain I would recommend the slurring thing right now.

What djg describes is what I spent a while doing with my playing. This is an approach that emulates typical sax tonguing on the guitar. It’s a good thing to practices Actual jazz phrasing is also … more complex.

The downstroke only thing is what I would recommend FIRST. Phrasing on the guitar is a complicated problem with lots of factors and there’s a lot to work on; but aside from the articulation thing there’s a quite lot of historical precedent in the old school players for focussing on downstrokes. it’s a pretty old school plectrum guitar thing, Charlie Christian, Billy Bauer, George Van Eps, Django, Bucky Pizzarelli etc. Even Joe Pass.But it’s not the only way the old guys played…

But that’s based on what I think I would teach if you were my student. It’s not the only way to go about it.

Obviously there’s quite a low speed ceiling (though higher than one might think) so you’ll have to adopt other things to play faster, be it slurring, alternate picking or whatever, but by the time you need to do that I think it will have done its work.

One player who uses both these approaches; downstrokes only for medium eights, and hornlike slurring for faster playing is Mike Moreno. So the two things are not in fact contradictory, but can be complementary. Obviously quite a modern player.

Of the more classic players, I feel Wes integrates the thumb down stroke thing with considerable left hand slurring. Grant Green also uses slurs quite judiciously, but I’m not so clear on his technique.

Thanks for the perspective. As an academic, I more or less expect competing even conflicting perspectives on anything! I think I'll keep trying to play the even 8ths and downstrokes, just because it seems to help me get the notes right in a more positive way. Will also try the emphasis on "and" listening to the track.

This is actually quite fun. I feel like a patient in the hospital and the doctors are all standing around my bed looking at my chart talking about how they'd treat me.

One doc says to another, "I know your diagnosis is wrong, and I'm sure the autopsy will prove it...."

[Tal_175]

yeah.

What would've been really funny is to start a thread with this recording (without JP's introduction in the beginning) and ask for advice.

[lawson-stone]

there is a red cassette tape where he plays all the stuff. i think i got it from aebersold mail order via american friends in the 80s. iirc carol kaye used to sell it too.

Actually SOMEWHERE I have a CD of all the parts in the book, I think it's made from that old cassette. Gotta hunt for it...

[Reg]

So Lawson... obviously some great advice from great players. But I just can't avoid the fact that... while your sounding great and seems like you have your thing going on and it looks like your having fun.. Most of the advice just doesn't really have that much to do with your playing. The tempo... at that slow speed... just has way to much space. The only way to create more "feel" is to subdivide. Swing feel is "triplets"... unless your going to get funky. And that's not going to happen...

The backing tract is using typical triplet swing feel... and your trying to force somewhat straight 8ths... and because the tempo is ...slow ...and your trying to lock into.... ? just the downbeats... there's this rhythmic mud going on.
You know your using economy picking ... right? You have the piece memorized... right.

Try playing each beat as a triplet. Play each down beat with two attacks and then the last 8th. Think 2 bar phrases with the 1st bar being strong bar and the second bar being weak... like a call and answer feel. Eventually (end goal) this will help you have micro as well as macro phrasing.... "feel".

The 2 bars will expand to 4, then 8 etc.... It's OK to have time float as long as there is "Form" and a shape within that form. RC's are A A B A... 4 x 8 bar sections, with the 3rd section being a change.

Or Not.... I'm just trying to help with practice technique, not performance. The only way to fix something... is to stop rehearsing what you want to fix.

[mr. beaumont]

As the unsolicited advice continues...

I didn't think Lawson was ever planning on playing these straight 8th lines that slow. It was a work in progress.

I just heard what I thought was the cause of the getting ahead of the beat, and I suggested something that might help, which I think it did.

But it's by no means "eureka, that's the end of it!"

And I'm a huge fan of getting into the slurring as things progress...actually, I sat down and just learned the first two bars and it nearly drove me crazy to pick every note!

[lawson-stone]

Hey guys none of the advice is "unsolicited." I always appreciate constructive advice and on several clips I said so! Some of you are very advanced players, certain well beyond me, and I appreciate the perspective you bring. I find that trying out different ideas, like all downstrokes, even 8ths, slurring certain points, all help me internalize the ideas. Once I have something like this or one of the Raney solos memorized, that's when I believe the learning really starts. I've got a competent piece of playing created by a great jazz musician under my fingers and in my head, that's when it's time to start not just playing it, but playing with it.

So feel free to suggest ideas, even demo. I love demos when they come from the same people giving the advice!

[lawson-stone]

Were you even looking for advice? I reread the OP and saw no evidence of that. I wonder why people here are always giving advice. I do not have that urge at all.

DB


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk

My "default" is that I'm open to suggestions, and I have a pretty good critical "filter" to weed out things that aren't helpful. I get the idea that you or someone else might not feel compelled to advise! That's cool. I post because it's really the only time I play for anyone, and if it opens a conversation that helps me improve, that's great.

[lawson-stone]

As the unsolicited advice continues...

I didn't think Lawson was ever planning on playing these straight 8th lines that slow. It was a work in progress.

I just heard what I thought was the cause of the getting ahead of the beat, and I suggested something that might help, which I think it did.

But it's by no means "eureka, that's the end of it!"

And I'm a huge fan of getting into the slurring as things progress...actually, I sat down and just learned the first two bars and it nearly drove me crazy to pick every note!

Ha! the whole solo is like that. What I like about learning it is my fingers were going places they were not accustomed to going. Breaking down some of my fingering cliches.

[lawson-stone]

Fair enough. My take on internet expertise is grim. There’s too many guys out there giving advice on how to play changes that cannot play changes. You need a good filter for sure.

DB


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk

You and I have of course talked about this privately and I agree! There are some folks on here whose suggestions have always been helpful when I tried them, and so I tend to give them serious attention. Other ideas I take with a grain of salt, or maybe a scoop of salt.

[mr. beaumont]

I give lawson advice because he's actively trying to get better.

Most folks just want a pat on the back.

[mr. beaumont]

Its probably another display of my huge ego.

[mr. beaumont]

Relax man. I wasn't even thinking of you.

DB

I'm playing a bit.

I think it's a lot less ego as in "im the expert" and more ego guilty of "enjoying talking and hearing myself do it." I'm certainly guilty of the latter.

I figure anything that actually gets this place away from shots of guitars lined up against couches

[grahambop]

Never accept advice from strangers on Belgian websites.

[lawson-stone]

Same thing. Giving advice is as much an ego thing for most. Look it up under psychology and advice. Or Click here. They are similar ego boosters.

Maybe some guys just want to be heard. That is a weird common thing among musicians.

DB


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk

Many of you guys are such great players I'm happy to hear your advice. Indeed, I think some people do just like the sound of their own voice, the feeling of being an authority, but I know how that works, and can spot it pretty easily. But there are several on here (you among them, DB!) who have consistently had helpful things to say that have helped me take a few more steps forward down the road to being a solid 1950's bop player (!!). Even the periodic poseur can say something that offers a useful clue.

[lawson-stone]

I usually avoid educational and theory threads so sorry if I derailed your thread Lawson and others. I should really keep out of these. Strangely I do value the advice on gear here! Some really knowledgeable guys in that department posting here.

DB


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk

Hey DB you are a welcome, even invited presence anywhere as far as I'm concerned. You are very much in the vein of what I want do do, both of us academics, both admirers of the great bop players, and your perspective on anything even remotely related to what we're talking about is helpful. And yes, even comment on "toxic musical expert syndrome" is always pertinent. Someoe posting a clip and seeking advice always opens the door for folks who either "type a good solo" or, worse, have "read about a good solo" in some book. I think of it as being like cooking. I want to eat the food, and then if I like it, I want to hear how they made it. You're a great cook, DB, and your take is always welcome.

[lawson-stone]

Still chuckling over "pictures of guitars on couches." That's a good one.

[charlieparker]

Hey DB you are a welcome, even invited presence anywhere as far as I'm concerned. You are very much in the vein of what I want do do, both of us academics, both admirers of the great bop players, and your perspective on anything even remotely related to what we're talking about is helpful. And yes, even comment on "toxic musical expert syndrome" is always pertinent. Someoe posting a clip and seeking advice always opens the door for folks who either "type a good solo" or, worse, have "read about a good solo" in some book. I think of it as being like cooking. I want to eat the food, and then if I like it, I want to hear how they made it. You're a great cook, DB, and your take is always welcome.

My gosh, we now have about 3 pages of posts complaining because a guy said he likes Jimmy Raney.

[lawson-stone]

My gosh, we now have about 3 pages of posts complaining because a guy said he likes Jimmy Raney.

Your comment is what is known as reductio ad absurdum, which is a logical fallacy of falsely summarizing someone's position in a way that ma look ridiculous. What bothered many here was that he appealed to his liking Raney to diss Joe Pass. And then offered advice on soloing that (a) wouldn't be welcome with someone who likes the player he dissed and (b) doesn't come from someone who has demonstrated the validity of the advice offered in his own playing.

Also, the last 3 pages have NOT been just complaining about "picking"'s post. There have been clips posted, discussion about technique, a lot of advice that I as the OP have found very helpful and even fun to try out. But it's a discussion among players serious about getting better and not especially interested in hearing the latest ideas that are not relevant to the original post.

A great suggestion for this forum, that I've tried to abide by, is post a lot of clips so people can know how you play, and try to make sure your advice fits your level of accomplishment. It's amazing how that can produce useful conversation.

[Christian Miller]

@Jeff I always think it's more constructive to admit one has an ego and laugh at it than pretend you don't.

Nothing worse than dealing with people who pretend they don't have an ego.

(It's like all those massively uptight Buddhists you meet.)

[rpjazzguitar]

I can't say that I've ever derived any improvement in my time-feel from a verbal explanation. Well, maybe being told to change the chord 1/8th before the bar - that helped at one point.

But, for those interested in time feel, we have a wonderful resource. Reg's youtube videos. Every note he plays has great time feel.

I'd suggest checking out his videos and trying to imitate what he's doing in his comping. You can see the grips and hear the feel.

I read (and write) lots of posts about other things, often harmonic considerations. But, if you want a band to sound good and get hired, I think great time-feel trumps everything else.

[Irishmuso]

Your comment is what is known as reductio ad absurdum, which is a logical fallacy of falsely summarizing someone's position in a way that ma look ridiculous..

My bass-player friend used to say 'I don't wish to appear condescending - that's talking down to you by the way - but...' It always raised a laugh. You gotta laugh don't ya!