"Joe Pass Guitar Style" Rhythm Changes #1

[John A.]

I googled "begs the question". Two meanings showed up. One is calling for the question to be asked. The other is to assume a propostion is valid without arguing it.

Reductio, I thought, was disproving an argument by demonstrating that it leads to absurd conclusions. That will work fine in math. In the humanities (say, economics and anything further south of science), that's irrelevant -- since the winner of an argument is decided by strength of intellectual dominance, not logic. But, perhaps I disclose too much about my biases <g>.

"Begs the question" is a flavor of circular reasoning. Fairly recently, people have started using it to mean "calling for the question to be asked." If you're of the "grammar/usage is descriptive" cast of mind you might think of that as OK. I'm not, and don't.

FWIW, my father was an economist who used mathematical logic extensively (including to expose pseudo-scientific reasoning in economics), so I guess I both disagree and agree with you on your second point.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

One compact form of RAA in logic is

(¬ ¬ A) A

That is, if you can reach a contradiction from A being false, then A is true. Back in the day, I studied some logics (Intuitionism) where this is not valid. I was looking at how code could be shown to satisfy its specifications.

[rpjazzguitar]

"Begs the question" is a flavor of circular reasoning. Fairly recently, people have started using it to mean "calling for the question to be asked." If you're of the "grammar/usage is descriptive" cast of mind you might think of that as OK. I'm not, and don't.

FWIW, my father was an economist who used mathematical logic extensively (including to expose pseudo-scientific reasoning in economics), so I guess I both disagree and agree with you on your second point.

I'm of the "language evolves" school, I suppose. I mean, if I ever thought about stuff like that, I think that's what I would conclude.

The second part was supposed to be a joke, so the field of Economics is safe from me.

[wzpgsr]

The only thing left to discuss in this thread is our favorite smoothie ingredients. Who's going first?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

The only thing left to discuss in this thread is our favorite smoothie ingredients. Who's going first?

That reminds me -- time for matcha!

[John A.]

I'm of the "language evolves" school, I suppose. I mean, if I ever thought about stuff like that, I think that's what I would conclude.

The second part was supposed to be a joke, so the field of Economics is safe from me.

And I took it as one, but it's also a criticism that's often (fairly) leveled at economics (including by my dad, but that's a long story that's a lot less funny than "assume a can opener").

[Reg]

A good summary of what I think I'm hearing from all the advice. I am really thankful for all the substantive comments and reflections. I have a solid sense of what I'm doing well and where I need to focus. I think in my own improvising I lose the pulse because I'm really worried about note choice. One thing I like about memorizing a good solo is that once I have it mastered in terms of fingering, etc, I don't think about note choice and I start thinking about how I'm actually playing it. I hope to get there with these, and maybe some of the right feel will come over to my own improvisational efforts.

Yea Lawson...makes sense. I'm sure we all want to help. yea the performance thing or performance skills are a different type of practice. I don't really ever practice... but I do gig... like all the time. ( Disclaimer... didn't touch an instrument for 9 months during Covid and only started gigging two months ago, and work with two agents and lots of different bands). My point... is gigs are my practice. I can easily have conversations and interact while playing or sight reading. So like you recording a vid. is like how I gig.... The big difference is... I get in time reaction from other musicians and the audiences. So how to create that experience at home.... well that might be what advice you need.

The technical skills etc... are what they are, right. It's not like your going to suddenly develop whatever they are. So like I was trying to suggest, performance skills need to be practiced, like how your memorizing the rhy. changes piece.
Take just the 1st 8 bars... or whatever section you like. get it together, and them record playing through it a couple times, then transpose or move up or down to different Keys and record your self playing same 8 bars in different keys, again. A few times through. ( try without rehearsing). Maybe you'll get past the part of just playing the memorized notes.

I'm no expert of how to practice... but I am an expert with live performance, and I'm just an average pro. It's not nearly as profound or abstract as ongoing conversations...( I do enjoy reading them thanks). Can you play bop heads, or have many memorized. If so do the same thing... play in different keys and record. I'm just try to suggest a possible practice that might help you to start feeling time as compared to letting the notes dictate time for you...

Good luck

[lawson-stone]

I was hoping to leave things where they were having said my piece because I respect the journey you are on Lawson, along with all of us, to learn jazz. I'm inspired by a lot of what you do and hope to follow in your footsteps on the instrument.

But, in my mind it is "lower" for the better players to demean the playing of others. I would describe that as mean-spirited. Especially, given the fact that the person just offered some innocuous suggestions.

We can all form are own opinions on what advice is good or not. But it is unnecessary to call someone out because you don't think they are good enough to offer advice.

I disagree and thought your reduction of our whole discussion to complaining about somebody liking Jimmy raney was pretty cheap.

But I do understand the point you make, and it's a valid one from your perspective. I want to move on and try to keep talking about soloing and sounding more "beboppy" if we may.

[Irishmuso]

I wasn't condescending. I"m a professor with 35+ years in the classroom and I have had very sharp students who did not know the basic logical fallacies and still thought "beg the question" means "makes you ask the question." Some the smartest people I know don't know these things.

Also... it's not condescension if the person you are talking to has taken a low road. You have to talk down to them just to connect. That's where they have positioned themselves.

Jeepers, someone got out of bed on the wrong side. I was merely relating a little joke! I do however sympathise with you if the smartest people you know don't know that 'beg the question' is one of logical fallacies. Altogether now, 'You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll be in Scotland afore ye...'

[lawson-stone]

Yea Lawson...makes sense. I'm sure we all want to help. yea the performance thing or performance skills are a different type of practice. I don't really ever practice... but I do gig... like all the time. ( Disclaimer... didn't touch an instrument for 9 months during Covid and only started gigging two months ago, and work with two agents and lots of different bands). My point... is gigs are my practice. I can easily have conversations and interact while playing or sight reading. So like you recording a vid. is like how I gig.... The big difference is... I get in time reaction from other musicians and the audiences. So how to create that experience at home.... well that might be what advice you need.

The technical skills etc... are what they are, right. It's not like your going to suddenly develop whatever they are. So like I was trying to suggest, performance skills need to be practiced, like how your memorizing the rhy. changes piece.
Take just the 1st 8 bars... or whatever section you like. get it together, and them record playing through it a couple times, then transpose or move up or down to different Keys and record your self playing same 8 bars in different keys, again. A few times through. ( try without rehearsing). Maybe you'll get past the part of just playing the memorized notes.

I'm no expert of how to practice... but I am an expert with live performance, and I'm just an average pro. It's not nearly as profound or abstract as ongoing conversations...( I do enjoy reading them thanks). Can you play bop heads, or have many memorized. If so do the same thing... play in different keys and record. I'm just try to suggest a possible practice that might help you to start feeling time as compared to letting the notes dictate time for you...

Good luck

Thanks for your thoughts there. Yeah, clips are pretty much my main way to play for others, and it's not like gigging or playing live because I can always re-do a clip! I've always said the difference between a pro and an amateur is not how well they play, but consistency. A pro can deliver the same level of (presumably excellent) musicianship time after time in a reliable way. An amateur might have a moment of genius, but can't reproduce it consistently.

I have some really good moments, but that "you just get one shot" aspect of live playing is something I miss. I used to get amateur gigs, family events, little parties, etc. but those have all gone to recorded music now, so those kinds of performances with a live audience but small and familiar, are gone.

Anyhow, I'm rambling! thanks for your take on all this.

[Donplaysguitar]

Joe Pass ladies and gentlemen, Joe Pass.

[PMB]

I seem to recall spending some time in college.

Whatever it was that I studied, jazz guitar has been harder.

I've taught a number of medical doctors over the years and I think they'd all agree. One of them, when introduced to the concept of inverting 7th chords on all string sets blurted out, "Damn, this is more challenging than studying anatomy!".

[lawson-stone]

I googled "begs the question". Two meanings showed up. One is calling for the question to be asked. The other is to assume a propostion is valid without arguing it.

Reductio, I thought, was disproving an argument by demonstrating that it leads to absurd conclusions. That will work fine in math. In the humanities (say, economics and anything further south of science), that's irrelevant -- since the winner of an argument is decided by strength of intellectual dominance, not logic. But, perhaps I disclose too much about my biases <g>.

The key here is I am referring to what are known as "informal" fallacies. Specifically a "formal" fallacy is an argument that is wrong because it is in an invalid form. An "informal" fallacy uses a correct form of argumentation but introduces errors and hidden assumptions due to the use of natural language. So the statement can seem to be "formally" correct but due to vagaries of word meanings, references, and context, the statements themselves do not correctly fulfill what the form requires. They look correct and logical, but they lead to the wrong conclusion.

So in formal logic, yes, proving a point by demonstrating its denial leads to contradiction is completely legitimate. But fill that form with erroneous, prejudiced, statements or statements out of context, and the correct form produces a falsehood. That's what we mean by "informal" fallacy.

Anyhow, I'm really tired and kind of sorry I even started this thread, so I'm done with it.

[Christian Miller]

"Jimmy Raney is the best bop guitarist because he is the best at playing bop guitar" is perfectly acceptable logic for jazz guitar

[Christian Miller]

I've taught a number of medical doctors over the years and I think they'd all agree. One of them, when introduced to the concept of inverting 7th chords on all string sets blurted out, "Damn, this is more challenging than studying anatomy!".

It's hard in a different way. When I was at university I remember the very specific time my brain actually broke, and I discovered the very real limit to my cognitive ability. It was Sunday. I couldn't do the problem. I wasn't clever enough to understand the math.

I was 21 as well, I've only become stupider over time.

I've never felt that way about music theory. Music theory is fairly easy, mostly the difficulty is in the terms and names. But theory, of course, doesn't get you there.

The thing about jazz guitar is requires humility. You have to bank the hours inverting those chords (well maybe not that specific thing necessarily, but all musical skills require TIME)

Cleverness in jazz guitar can only get you so far. To be a player, you must WORK. You must also learn a different way to be, to use your mind. Both of these things took me a long time to learn.

So yeah, jazz guitar is difficult, but in a different way. Teaches you different things.

[PMB]

Yea... PMB that's great approach... but isn't the example of the Bridge, kind of just the opposite.

All 4 bars start with a Root. The A-7 is just part of the D7... used as a chord pattern and his phrase chooses to use the D7 as the Target. I agree and love tension release... and musical organization with use of phrasing is ... well obviously a great practice. And I love any device that naturally creates or creates the perception of...I guess in this discussion, the feel of swing... with forward motion.

Getting back to OP...Lawson. As stated by most... yes he needs to get his Pulse together. And I also believe he needs to work on his picking... or whatever technique he wants to use to be able to create better Timing, which will result in better feel and phrasing.... hell maybe even the concept of seeing and hearing phrasing and the general overall shape of what he's playing.

I played a duo gig last night...with piano... we never really had to think about time or phrasing etc... where I'm going is many players have time issues....As I was driving home after gig...I was thinking... there are players who have time and those who are time followers... at gig one of the tunes we played was Dreamsville, old Mancini ballad, anyway... started out rubato...went into time... 2nd time through A section, ( AABA form), he took beautiful solo and when I started I got into a double time feel swing thing... no problems... my last "A" I brought it back down to ballad and yada yada... there were never any problems, audience dug it...typical jazz gig with typical jazz musicians...Tonight's BB gig with my Book, same shit...

I guess lawson has piece memorized ... and it's probable just a little bit above his technical skill level of Performance.

Maybe try just playing The "A" section.... try and get it how you want it. Shorter section should make it so you don't need to think or remember what to play.... concentrate on the performance of what your playing. Just use what you have...

Most of what I see and hear from Lawson's posts, (and many other post's)... is just technical issues. I'm nobody and suck... can't play changes, have an ego that has no end and many other problems... I should just retire... Have no idea why I gig all the time... get called back over and over. There all deaf...

I get your angle here, Reg and actually edited my text accordingly although if you consider Am7 as part of D7 (it's really D7sus anyway), one could argue that the accumulating chromatic tensions of bar 2 are resolved at the beginning of the next bar.

Incidentally, I regularly play Dreamsville on gigs with a great piano player as well and we sometimes find ourselves playing that same rhythmic game. It comes down to being aware of each level in the basic grid at all times, something Pat Metheny (another fave of Lawson's from memory) brings up in that online guitar lesson that's been floating around the Internet for years.

[PMB]

It's hard in a different way. When I was at university I remember the very specific time my brain actually broke, and I discovered the very real limit to my cognitive ability. It was Sunday. I couldn't do the problem. I wasn't clever enough to understand the math.

I was 21 as well, I've only become stupider over time.

I've never felt that way about music theory. Music theory is fairly easy, mostly the difficulty is in the terms and names. But theory, of course, doesn't get you there.

The thing about jazz guitar is requires humility. You have to bank the hours inverting those chords (well maybe not that specific thing necessarily, but all musical skills require TIME)

Cleverness in jazz guitar can only get you so far. To be a player, you must WORK. You must also learn a different way to be, to use your mind. Both of these things took me a long time to learn.

So yeah, jazz guitar is difficult, but in a different way. Teaches you different things.

Totally agree with you, Christian. It's the concept of humility rather than the theory itself they often find baffling!

[steve burchfield]

Amazon has a Kindle version of the orange cover Joe Pass book for about 7 $. You can get almost instantly and light up your computer screen with it. J.Aebersold was offering autographed J. Rainey album covers for 9$ recently. Might look good on a practice room wall.

[lawson-stone]

Jeepers, someone got out of bed on the wrong side. I was merely relating a little joke! I do however sympathise with you if the smartest people you know don't know that 'beg the question' is one of logical fallacies. Altogether now, 'You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll be in Scotland afore ye...'

You know some other folks in my life think I've been what in the south we call "testy" these days. Maybe I need to chill a little. Or a lot.

[lawson-stone]

It's hard in a different way. When I was at university I remember the very specific time my brain actually broke, and I discovered the very real limit to my cognitive ability. It was Sunday. I couldn't do the problem. I wasn't clever enough to understand the math.

I was 21 as well, I've only become stupider over time.

I've never felt that way about music theory. Music theory is fairly easy, mostly the difficulty is in the terms and names. But theory, of course, doesn't get you there.

The thing about jazz guitar is requires humility. You have to bank the hours inverting those chords (well maybe not that specific thing necessarily, but all musical skills require TIME)

Cleverness in jazz guitar can only get you so far. To be a player, you must WORK. You must also learn a different way to be, to use your mind. Both of these things took me a long time to learn.

So yeah, jazz guitar is difficult, but in a different way. Teaches you different things.

My problem with theory is the whole "play the melodic minor starting from the 3rd degree..." overall having to do all that head-math is incredibly hard for me. I basically gave up on really learning scales other than the major scale and a couple of its modes, but really more of my playing is becoming arpeggios and pentatonic with chromatic notes. Which likely explains why I suck so badly.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have multiple problems with theory and, at the same time, a good deal of respect.

Two quick stories.

1. Jimmy Bruno had a video on JBGI where he soloed using the notes of Bbmajor, or maybe it was just the Bbmaj7 arp, against a static Bbmaj7 chord. The tempo was brisk, his time was spot on, his phrasing was interesting, he articulated all the notes really well and the whole thing sounded fantastic.

2. In a lesson, Chico Pinheiro played a ii V I in Cmajor and sounded awesome. Instantly identifiable as him, suggesting his own take on harmony. When I reviewed the recording I found that the part that seemed unique was Galt against G7. The same notes as everybody else but with melodic and rhythmic gifts.

So, one conclusion is, you can sound great without much theory at all. JB clearly demonstrated it.

Another conclusion is that the theory alone doesn't get you to Chico's level.

I could include an example of a player employing theory to sound great.

All the paths go up to the top of the mountain.

If there's a problem I've had with theory is that it can be seductive. Rather than learn every possible pair of triads against every possible bass note (which I saw recommended on another forum), it's probably better to take one small scrap of theory at a time and work it into tunes while focusing on time-feel and melody. My guess is that everybody on this forum knows more than enough theory for a jazz gig. Maybe not enough for touring Europe with Herbie, but enough for a local tavern.

I didn't start out intending to rant, but I guess I did, so I apologize.

[Donplaysguitar]

You know some other folks in my life think I've been what in the south we call "testy" these days. Maybe I need to chill a little. Or a lot.

Yeah, chill is good but don't be too hard on yourself, you are far from alone.

COVID and other macro issues are causing lots of stress and burnout with a lot of folks, everywhere (literally).

[djg]

Anyhow, I'm really tired and kind of sorry I even started this thread, so I'm done with it.

i apologize for the intrusion and have deleted my posts

[hohoho]

Sloooow practicing beginning of etude and "evaluating" in B major at 50BPM with

MetroDrone(R): All purpose practice tool | Muse Eek

[Christian Miller]

I have multiple problems with theory and, at the same time, a good deal of respect.

Two quick stories.

1. Jimmy Bruno had a video on JBGI where he soloed using the notes of Bbmajor, or maybe it was just the Bbmaj7 arp, against a static Bbmaj7 chord. The tempo was brisk, his time was spot on, his phrasing was interesting, he articulated all the notes really well and the whole thing sounded fantastic.

2. In a lesson, Chico Pinheiro played a ii V I in Cmajor and sounded awesome. Instantly identifiable as him, suggesting his own take on harmony. When I reviewed the recording I found that the part that seemed unique was Galt against G7. The same notes as everybody else but with melodic and rhythmic gifts.

So, one conclusion is, you can sound great without much theory at all. JB clearly demonstrated it.

Another conclusion is that the theory alone doesn't get you to Chico's level.

I could include an example of a player employing theory to sound great.

All the paths go up to the top of the mountain.

If there's a problem I've had with theory is that it can be seductive. Rather than learn every possible pair of triads against every possible bass note (which I saw recommended on another forum), it's probably better to take one small scrap of theory at a time and work it into tunes while focusing on time-feel and melody. My guess is that everybody on this forum knows more than enough theory for a jazz gig. Maybe not enough for touring Europe with Herbie, but enough for a local tavern.

I didn't start out intending to rant, but I guess I did, so I apologize.

That was an important realisation for me; I honestly think one of the main functions of transcribing solos is to realise how straightforward most note choices are and how much of the player’s personality is in the time feel, tone, phrasing, articulation etc etc.

(Especially true of 1950s players, where they’d all basically learned the same Parker licks. And yet these players were often very individual.)

Not that Chico’s note choices are always simple exactly; but if you never play simple stuff, the more complex stuff doesn’t contrast.

Another function is to help you pick up these nuances; students always sound better when they’ve learned the line or tune by ear. That’s why I’m generally against people learning stuff from the Omnibook etc, you miss so much