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"Begs the question" is a flavor of circular reasoning. Fairly recently, people have started using it to mean "calling for the question to be asked." If you're of the "grammar/usage is descriptive" cast of mind you might think of that as OK. I'm not, and don't.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
FWIW, my father was an economist who used mathematical logic extensively (including to expose pseudo-scientific reasoning in economics), so I guess I both disagree and agree with you on your second point.
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07-07-2021 04:57 PM
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One compact form of RAA in logic is
(¬ ¬ A)A
That is, if you can reach a contradiction from A being false, then A is true. Back in the day, I studied some logics (Intuitionism) where this is not valid. I was looking at how code could be shown to satisfy its specifications.
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I'm of the "language evolves" school, I suppose. I mean, if I ever thought about stuff like that, I think that's what I would conclude. Originally Posted by John A.
The second part was supposed to be a joke, so the field of Economics is safe from me.
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The only thing left to discuss in this thread is our favorite smoothie ingredients. Who's going first?
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That reminds me -- time for matcha! Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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And I took it as one, but it's also a criticism that's often (fairly) leveled at economics (including by my dad, but that's a long story that's a lot less funny than "assume a can opener"). Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Yea Lawson...makes sense. I'm sure we all want to help. yea the performance thing or performance skills are a different type of practice. I don't really ever practice... but I do gig... like all the time. ( Disclaimer... didn't touch an instrument for 9 months during Covid and only started gigging two months ago, and work with two agents and lots of different bands). My point... is gigs are my practice. I can easily have conversations and interact while playing or sight reading. So like you recording a vid. is like how I gig.... The big difference is... I get in time reaction from other musicians and the audiences. So how to create that experience at home.... well that might be what advice you need. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The technical skills etc... are what they are, right. It's not like your going to suddenly develop whatever they are. So like I was trying to suggest, performance skills need to be practiced, like how your memorizing the rhy. changes piece.
Take just the 1st 8 bars... or whatever section you like. get it together, and them record playing through it a couple times, then transpose or move up or down to different Keys and record your self playing same 8 bars in different keys, again. A few times through. ( try without rehearsing). Maybe you'll get past the part of just playing the memorized notes.
I'm no expert of how to practice... but I am an expert with live performance, and I'm just an average pro. It's not nearly as profound or abstract as ongoing conversations...( I do enjoy reading them thanks). Can you play bop heads, or have many memorized. If so do the same thing... play in different keys and record. I'm just try to suggest a possible practice that might help you to start feeling time as compared to letting the notes dictate time for you...
Good luck
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I disagree and thought your reduction of our whole discussion to complaining about somebody liking Jimmy raney was pretty cheap. Originally Posted by charlieparker
But I do understand the point you make, and it's a valid one from your perspective. I want to move on and try to keep talking about soloing and sounding more "beboppy" if we may.
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Jeepers, someone got out of bed on the wrong side. I was merely relating a little joke! I do however sympathise with you if the smartest people you know don't know that 'beg the question' is one of logical fallacies. Altogether now, 'You take the high road and I'll take the low road, and I'll be in Scotland afore ye...' Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Thanks for your thoughts there. Yeah, clips are pretty much my main way to play for others, and it's not like gigging or playing live because I can always re-do a clip! I've always said the difference between a pro and an amateur is not how well they play, but consistency. A pro can deliver the same level of (presumably excellent) musicianship time after time in a reliable way. An amateur might have a moment of genius, but can't reproduce it consistently. Originally Posted by Reg
I have some really good moments, but that "you just get one shot" aspect of live playing is something I miss. I used to get amateur gigs, family events, little parties, etc. but those have all gone to recorded music now, so those kinds of performances with a live audience but small and familiar, are gone.
Anyhow, I'm rambling! thanks for your take on all this.
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Joe Pass ladies and gentlemen, Joe Pass.
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I've taught a number of medical doctors over the years and I think they'd all agree. One of them, when introduced to the concept of inverting 7th chords on all string sets blurted out, "Damn, this is more challenging than studying anatomy!". Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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The key here is I am referring to what are known as "informal" fallacies. Specifically a "formal" fallacy is an argument that is wrong because it is in an invalid form. An "informal" fallacy uses a correct form of argumentation but introduces errors and hidden assumptions due to the use of natural language. So the statement can seem to be "formally" correct but due to vagaries of word meanings, references, and context, the statements themselves do not correctly fulfill what the form requires. They look correct and logical, but they lead to the wrong conclusion. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
So in formal logic, yes, proving a point by demonstrating its denial leads to contradiction is completely legitimate. But fill that form with erroneous, prejudiced, statements or statements out of context, and the correct form produces a falsehood. That's what we mean by "informal" fallacy.
Anyhow, I'm really tired and kind of sorry I even started this thread, so I'm done with it.
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"Jimmy Raney is the best bop guitarist because he is the best at playing bop guitar" is perfectly acceptable logic for jazz guitar
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It's hard in a different way. When I was at university I remember the very specific time my brain actually broke, and I discovered the very real limit to my cognitive ability. It was Sunday. I couldn't do the problem. I wasn't clever enough to understand the math. Originally Posted by PMB
I was 21 as well, I've only become stupider over time.
I've never felt that way about music theory. Music theory is fairly easy, mostly the difficulty is in the terms and names. But theory, of course, doesn't get you there.
The thing about jazz guitar is requires humility. You have to bank the hours inverting those chords (well maybe not that specific thing necessarily, but all musical skills require TIME)
Cleverness in jazz guitar can only get you so far. To be a player, you must WORK. You must also learn a different way to be, to use your mind. Both of these things took me a long time to learn.
So yeah, jazz guitar is difficult, but in a different way. Teaches you different things.
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I get your angle here, Reg and actually edited my text accordingly although if you consider Am7 as part of D7 (it's really D7sus anyway), one could argue that the accumulating chromatic tensions of bar 2 are resolved at the beginning of the next bar. Originally Posted by Reg
Incidentally, I regularly play Dreamsville on gigs with a great piano player as well and we sometimes find ourselves playing that same rhythmic game. It comes down to being aware of each level in the basic grid at all times, something Pat Metheny (another fave of Lawson's from memory) brings up in that online guitar lesson that's been floating around the Internet for years.
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Totally agree with you, Christian. It's the concept of humility rather than the theory itself they often find baffling! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Amazon has a Kindle version of the orange cover Joe Pass book for about 7 $. You can get almost instantly and light up your computer screen with it. J.Aebersold was offering autographed J. Rainey album covers for 9$ recently. Might look good on a practice room wall.
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You know some other folks in my life think I've been what in the south we call "testy" these days. Maybe I need to chill a little. Or a lot. Originally Posted by Irishmuso
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My problem with theory is the whole "play the melodic minor starting from the 3rd degree..." overall having to do all that head-math is incredibly hard for me. I basically gave up on really learning scales other than the major scale and a couple of its modes, but really more of my playing is becoming arpeggios and pentatonic with chromatic notes. Which likely explains why I suck so badly. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I have multiple problems with theory and, at the same time, a good deal of respect.
Two quick stories.
1. Jimmy Bruno had a video on JBGI where he soloed using the notes of Bbmajor, or maybe it was just the Bbmaj7 arp, against a static Bbmaj7 chord. The tempo was brisk, his time was spot on, his phrasing was interesting, he articulated all the notes really well and the whole thing sounded fantastic.
2. In a lesson, Chico Pinheiro played a ii V I in Cmajor and sounded awesome. Instantly identifiable as him, suggesting his own take on harmony. When I reviewed the recording I found that the part that seemed unique was Galt against G7. The same notes as everybody else but with melodic and rhythmic gifts.
So, one conclusion is, you can sound great without much theory at all. JB clearly demonstrated it.
Another conclusion is that the theory alone doesn't get you to Chico's level.
I could include an example of a player employing theory to sound great.
All the paths go up to the top of the mountain.
If there's a problem I've had with theory is that it can be seductive. Rather than learn every possible pair of triads against every possible bass note (which I saw recommended on another forum), it's probably better to take one small scrap of theory at a time and work it into tunes while focusing on time-feel and melody. My guess is that everybody on this forum knows more than enough theory for a jazz gig. Maybe not enough for touring Europe with Herbie, but enough for a local tavern.
I didn't start out intending to rant, but I guess I did, so I apologize.
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Yeah, chill is good but don't be too hard on yourself, you are far from alone. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
COVID and other macro issues are causing lots of stress and burnout with a lot of folks, everywhere (literally).
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i apologize for the intrusion and have deleted my posts Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Sloooow practicing beginning of etude and "evaluating" in B major at 50BPM with
MetroDrone(R): All purpose practice tool | Muse Eek
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That was an important realisation for me; I honestly think one of the main functions of transcribing solos is to realise how straightforward most note choices are and how much of the player’s personality is in the time feel, tone, phrasing, articulation etc etc. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
(Especially true of 1950s players, where they’d all basically learned the same Parker licks. And yet these players were often very individual.)
Not that Chico’s note choices are always simple exactly; but if you never play simple stuff, the more complex stuff doesn’t contrast.
Another function is to help you pick up these nuances; students always sound better when they’ve learned the line or tune by ear. That’s why I’m generally against people learning stuff from the Omnibook etc, you miss so much
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