JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 9) - Dolphin Dance

[ragman1]

I know this will fall on deaf ears from certain members, but I’m a slow learner. Some people enjoy listening to music closely and using this as a process for getting deeper into music.

I think the question shifted more to ‘what is a satisfying simplification of this chord to a guitar arrangement?’ and I think ones ears and taste have to be the guiding factor here. Again deciding whether or not one likes say an E next to the melody in a chord is not so much analysis as, how can I put this? Oh yes, being a musician.

You can hear for yourself that different guitarists have found different solutions. The one I came up with I would never have chosen if I simply went from the chord symbols so I’m glad I took the time.

Anyway players are at different levels, and choosing different goals and that’s cool.

Some are happy to play over an Aebersold from a lead sheet and leave it at that. Others are doing solo arrangements. It depends on what your goals are. For my part I wanted to learn the tune by heart and to a level where I would be happy playing it on a gig, and on most gigs I play I am the chordal instrument.

Absolutely, I know. No query there, especially with chord melody, about which I'm unqualified to comment but I can see the problem/attraction.

[TOMMO]

So here's one with a dreaded backing track. Sounds okay to me. Well, not quite as good maybe :-)

Sounds nice! And thanks for the C.B. track - wonderful sparse playing there.

I have no idea what you are rambling on about or what point you are trying to make.

I think most of us have moved on from this tune now anyway.

Which doesn't mean that none here can try a little harder to learn the tune and even post a late version. I didn't manage to learn it in the week it was current but I pick it up from time to time trying to get into it and should I succeed to a certain (postworthy) degree I may as well post a clip - nothing wrong with that....?

[grahambop]

Sounds nice! And thanks for the C.B. track - wonderful sparse playing there.




Which doesn't mean that none here can try a little harder to learn the tune and even post a late version. I didn't manage to learn it in the week it was current but I pick it up from time to time trying to get into it and should I succeed to a certain (postworthy) degree I may as well post a clip - nothing wrong with that....?

Sure, carry on, as I understand it anyone can keep doing any of the tunes after the week in question, if they so wish. There’s nothing wrong with that.

[mr. beaumont]

Definitely--that's the beauty of a virtual jam...if you think of a good idea after the tune is "over," you can still have a crack at it!

[wzpgsr]

You know, Herbie Hancock is still alive. Why doesn't someone just ask him what his changes were for this tune? Or some of the other members of the band? I think all this guessing and microanalysing is completely bananas.

Somewhere there's got to be a notebook or something that spells it out. What happened in the studio?

Did they always do it exactly the same every time? I highly doubt it but they must obviously have had some basic template they were all using otherwise they couldn't have played it.

And trying to distill what a whole band of different instruments was doing into one chord is never going to be satisfactory. So the whole thing's mad anyway. Just get a playable version and play it. Keep it simple - without over simplifying it - and let's get through it! And then put it to bed and move on.

Life's too short, man.

I’m not sure if this comment was directed at me or not, but remember, there are varying degrees of skill level and experience participating here. For some of us, a tune like Dolphin Dance is tremendously challenging, even setting aside the quibbles of “what chord is Herbie playing here?”

[ragman1]

I’m not sure if this comment was directed at me or not, but remember, there are varying degrees of skill level and experience participating here. For some of us, a tune like Dolphin Dance is tremendously challenging, even setting aside the quibbles of “what chord is Herbie playing here?”

It was absolutely not directed at you or anyone else in particular. Paranoia unnecessary! I simply remembered seeing some posters saying about still wanting to do the tune, that's all.

Don't worry, i know exactly how challenging the tune is, believe me. There's not only the chords themselves but there's what to play over them. It's very difficult indeed, even for practised players.

I did do a post some time earlier, breaking it all down, but there was no response or reply at all. So I removed it and no one said anything, so so much for that! Would you like me to do it again?

[John A.]

I’m not sure if this comment was directed at me or not, but remember, there are varying degrees of skill level and experience participating here. For some of us, a tune like Dolphin Dance is tremendously challenging, even setting aside the quibbles of “what chord is Herbie playing here?”

If it helps, feel free to post questions about what you're finding challenging. I honestly think this tune is not as hard as it seems, and is somewhat forgiving of melody lines wandering from the changes. Jeff's write-up up top lays this out pretty well. You can reduce the tune to a few key-center areas, and then kind of fake the last 4 bars. You can then play it a lot over a period of time in order to try to consciously stretch the boundaries of your ideas. As a high-experience but low-skill player that's what I do, and it gets me through without sounding too terrible at least some of the time.

John

[wzpgsr]

If it helps, feel free to post what questions about what you're finding challenging. I honestly think this tune is not as hard as it seems, and is somewhat forgiving of melody lines wandering from the changes. Jeff's write-up up top lays this out pretty well. You can reduce the tune to a few key-center areas, and then kind of fake the last 4 bars. You can then play it a lot over a period of time in order to try to consciously stretch the boundaries of your ideas. As a high-experience but low-skill player that's what I do, and it gets me through without sounding too terrible at least some of the time.

John

Thanks—I’m getting there. Mainly just need time with the tune. It’s a good learning experience and I’ve grown to really appreciate this tune. Very crafty.

[rpjazzguitar]

In the last week, I've been working on a chord melody of Dolphin Dance as I worked on memorizing the changes.

The tune used to strike me as kind of rambling. I couldn't really detect the structure.

With enough repetition, it has started to make sense. The melodic contour of the opening bars -- repeated in different keys and reharmonized in different ways. Then the section that begins with Gmaj7 Abm7. Later, the section with the Am7 Bm7 C#m7. Then the Bm7/E Am7/E (or whatever you choose to play). The last few bars are the original melodic contour (not exactly the same thing, but a detectable shape) reharmonized in a way that is hard to identify, which just might mean you can play whatever you want.

To play on them, I've kept the melody in mind and stuck to chord tones. If I want to go further with it, which I probably don't, I'd have to figure out which additional notes work over each chord and write out ideas.

[ragman1]

What one plays over these chords - whichever version you use - is no different to any other tune. The same rules apply. The notes have to fit, whether it's done with triads, pents, scales, arpeggios, or anything else. If they don't fit, it's musical nonsense whether it's this tune or Happy Birthday To You.

But these ones here, like the slash chords, are a bit more awkward, of course. But it's only a question of knowing how to make them sound. It's not rocket science.

Chord melody, which may involve special voicings chosen by oneself, is a different matter, though.

[TOMMO]

I did do a post some time earlier, breaking it all down, but there was no response or reply at all. So I removed it and no one said anything, so so much for that! Would you like me to do it again?

Sorry but I don't remember that one....

[lawson-stone]

Ron Affif has a solo version. I think he transposed it and maybe used an alternate tuning, but it's an impressive performance. It's on his "Solotude" album.

[mr. beaumont]

In the last week, I've been working on a chord melody of Dolphin Dance as I worked on memorizing the changes.

The tune used to strike me as kind of rambling. I couldn't really detect the structure.

Yes! This is one that once you get the form down, it's like a blindfold is taken off or something.

I think I listened to this tune for years before I realized the first 4 bars were never repeated in the solos...

[ragman1]

Ron Affif has a solo version. I think he transposed it and maybe used an alternate tuning, but it's an impressive performance. It's on his "Solotude" album.

It's on here at 14.56.

Of course, that's the other option. Just change all the chords!

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes! This is one that once you get the form down, it's like a blindfold is taken off or something.

I think I listened to this tune for years before I realized the first 4 bars were never repeated in the solos...

Reg helped when he pointed out the major third key changes. That made things seem less random -- when I realized I was mostly going between G and Eb. The part that begins with Eb7#11 (in my version, anyway) and has whole-step ascending m7 chords is easy to hear because it sounds like a 2 5 3 6.

OTOH, I haven't yet gotten to the point where I can start the tune in a random key and play it all the way thru without difficulty. The changes aren't commonplace enough that my fingers automatically go to the next chord.

[Peter C]

Plot twist (sort of). I spent a little time with this tune mapping it out as a chord melody arrangement, trying to make sense of it, and it works. It's a beautiful composition, indeed. All I need now is 5-10 free hours to get it "right" and internalize it, so that should be sometime before Christmas.

[christianm77]

Plot twist (sort of). I spent a little time with this tune mapping it out as a chord melody arrangement, trying to make sense of it, and it works. It's a beautiful composition, indeed. All I need now is 5-10 free hours to get it "right" and internalize it, so that should be sometime before Christmas.

i know the feeling

[mr. beaumont]

OTOH, I haven't yet gotten to the point where I can start the tune in a random key and play it all the way thru without difficulty. The changes aren't commonplace enough that my fingers automatically go to the next chord.

Real talk though, the person who calls "Dolphin Dance" in some odd key at a jam is an asshole

[rpjazzguitar]

Real talk though, the person who calls "Dolphin Dance" in some odd key at a jam is an asshole

Never had it happen and don't expect it, although I have certainly seen asshole moves at a jam.

I was thinking about it from the point of view of my own ear training, much of which is focused on trying to teach my fingers to find the next chord without any interference from the likes of me.

I don't need to know what 7th chord I'm playing for my fingers to find the IV chord in a blues. Or, any chord of All of Me. My fingers know that tune in 12 keys.

Dolphin Dance? Stupid fingers. Needs a lot more reps.

Hijack: Temporary topic is asshole moves in jams. Here's my number 1.

A prominent pianist walks into a jam as somebody (me) is handing out books and yells "no books, no books!". Intimidates everybody into putting the books away. He then proceeds to call every tune, including tunes that very few people know. The bassist is a high level pro and he whispers the changes to that guy. The harmonies are not super difficult, but the roadmaps vary a lot - no AABA tunes in the lot. It was a learning experience for the participants, but it was supposed to be an ordinary jam.

My takeaway -- the guy who says no books can't be the guy calling all the tunes.

[rpjazzguitar]

Last four chords.

x6666x
x66787
3x6553- it's playable but uncomfortable. 3x6533 also works.
3x3443

[mr. beaumont]

Last four chords.

x6666x
x66787
3x6553- it's playable but uncomfortable. 3x6533 also works.
3x3443

Funny you should post that, I was sitting around messing with DD yesterday since this thread kept going, and those were exactly my "settled on" voicing for the last 4 (sans G bass note)

[Reg]

I guess I'm the AH.... but I'm also the guy who's had to play DD in a few Keys, at gigs. Maybe some are just lucky to not have had to perform with vocalist... ( a couple were actually good.)

Look... when you play a tune you don't know.... it always works better when to start with an analysis, a road map with directions, the analysis is the directions.

[mr. beaumont]

I guess I'm the AH.... but I'm also the guy who's had to play DD in a few Keys, at gigs. Maybe some are just lucky to not have had to perform with vocalist... ( a couple were actually good.)

Look... when you play a tune you don't know.... it always works better when to start with an analysis, a road map with directions, the analysis is the directions.

Well, you play with vocalists anything goes.

I've never heard one call Dolphin Dance (I'm thinking that does make me lucky)

[John A.]

I guess I'm the AH.... but I'm also the guy who's had to play DD in a few Keys, at gigs. Maybe some are just lucky to not have had to perform with vocalist... ( a couple were actually good.)

Look... when you play a tune you don't know.... it always works better when to start with an analysis, a road map with directions, the analysis is the directions.

Singers at jams, oy vey.

John

[Reg]

yea... I've hosted and ran many Jam sessions.... generally the jokes are about the guitar players.