There Will Never Be Another You - Improvisational Elaboration

**Bahnzo** · 05-31-2019, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I think your solos sound quite good, the main thing that would take them to the next level is to tighten up the time and get those phrases into a good groove.

I was going to mention this as well. I personally liked a lot of the phrases you use, but it's the timing/feel that's lacking. And possibly confidence as well. IMO, it sounds to me as if you are very tentative at times and that seems to come out in the playing.

**lawson-stone** · 05-31-2019, 04:51 PM

I will honestly confess... I'm loving all this encouragement and advice, even the criticisms are so constructive that it's easy to hear. You all are just incredible people to devote so much thought and time to my efforts.

Sometimes recently I've just wanted to quit, sell the archtops, keep my Martin D28 and play John Denver the rest of my life.

Said nobody, ever.

Seriously, though, your input into my musical growth has been a powerful motivation to keep plugging away at it.

**Bahnzo** · 05-31-2019, 05:01 PM

Oh, something I wanted to comment on, about the song itself....

Of all the versions I listened to, only one instrumental was at the original, ballad(ish) pace of the song. It seems everyone else speeds it up. I kind of like the song more as a ballad. Anyone else?

**Bahnzo** · 05-31-2019, 05:03 PM

What's wrong with John Denver?

**lawson-stone** · 05-31-2019, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bahnzo

What's wrong with John Denver?

Not one thing. I spent a big chunk of my life as a coffee-house John Denver wanna-be during the Great Folk Music Scare of the Seventies... when it almost caught on.

**lawson-stone** · 05-31-2019, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bahnzo

Oh, something I wanted to comment on, about the song itself....

Of all the versions I listened to, only one instrumental was at the original, ballad(ish) pace of the song. It seems everyone else speeds it up. I kind of like the song more as a ballad. Anyone else?

There is one very nice Kenny Burrell track at a ballad tempo.

**rpjazzguitar** · 05-31-2019, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

There is one very nice Kenny Burrell track at a ballad tempo.

I'd suggest imitating the feel of this:

**Bahnzo** · 06-01-2019, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

There is one very nice Kenny Burrell track at a ballad tempo.

I've seen that, and it's nice. But this one by Lester Young (with Oscar Peterson AND Barney Kessel) is the one I was talking about. Took me a bit to remember which one I was referring to. My problem with this tune, it's much too short.

**KirkP** · 06-01-2019, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Unless there's a change, I think I'm having to give up on this one. This is my last clip. I play the head, and 3 choruses, but in the end, I don't think i really broke out of cliches and licks to any kind of real creativity. This should be no surprise, though. Improvisation is very hard. It's hard to compose a decent melody in the serenity of the studio with time to try ideas, much less improvise on the fly. These choruses were pretty much worked out ahead of time. I prepared several alternative lines and ideas to choose from at different points, but the ideas were all thought through ahead of time.

I'm not trying to duck comment and constructive criticism, but honestly, I am quite discouraged that I just can't seem to get anywhere with this stuff.

Thanks all for your incredible contributions to the thread.

That sounded great to me. The first two choruses are a little stiff, but I think it’s because they were more difficult than the third chorus. Most of third chorus was fluid and really swung.

When I work hard on a tune and I feel I’ve hit a dead end, I’ll often set it aside and work on other tunes for a while. When I come back to it later, I might at first be frustrated that I’ve forgotten parts of it, but the process of relearning seems to help me get over some of the technical issues and improve beyond what had seemed a dead end.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-01-2019, 08:51 AM

Another thing to try to just focus on melody and groove is to impose some kind of limitation on yourself.. one or two strings, or a compacted area of the fretboard.

Heres my first notes of the day...I'm trying to play pretty much linear and not outline the chords by playing arpeggio shapes as much as possible. I play the notes I give myself to work with at the beginning, but it's a 4 feet span, top 3 strings plus one note on the 4th string.

Is it a great solo? Hardly. But did it force me to think differently? Absolutely!

**lawson-stone** · 06-01-2019, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Another thing to try to just focus on melody and groove is to impose some kind of limitation on yourself.. one or two strings, or a compacted area of the fretboard.

Heres my first notes of the day...I'm trying to play pretty much linear and not outline the chords by playing arpeggio shapes as much as possible. I play the notes I give myself to work with at the beginning, but it's a 4 feet span, top 3 strings plus one note on the 4th string.

Is it a great solo? Hardly. But did it force me to think differently? Absolutely!

That was really nice. I'm getting a set of ideas now to be working with for a while.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 06-01-2019, 10:05 AM

Hey Lawson, I don't know if anybody has mentioned this , but have you ever tried Howard Roberts super chops type methodology with a tune ? Basically start off really really slow, like 60 to 80 BPM, You record several 10 minute soloing sessions per day , straight eighths etc. bump the metronome a little bit each day.

Anyway, one of the preassessment type things with that is that you record yourself insanely slow and play it back at double speed etc. it gives you a good idea at what problems are true creativity problems versus more technical problems. When I did it , I found that I was much more creative than I actually thought I was. It was more of a time /technical barrier than a hearing /creativity barrier.

I'd say record a version at an insanely slow tempo and playback at 2x . Give yourself a true assessment of where you are on the creativity scale right now.

**rpjazzguitar** · 06-01-2019, 01:40 PM

**lawson-stone** · 06-01-2019, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

Whoa they don't make 'em like that anymore!

**lawson-stone** · 06-01-2019, 03:36 PM

In the Frank Vignola lesson above, he does a sequence with, basically, guide tones, and I've been playing around with those ever since. What a wonderful way to simplify the whole tune! I'm enjoying just walking those tones up and down, playing with the rhythm, and adding in a neighboring chord-tone, melody note, or chromatic note. Not history making, but I'm feeling a liberty with the tune that I didn't feel before. No doubt, all the prior work has contributed, but this simply little sequence of guide tones he outlines is just amazing.

**PMB** · 09-20-2019, 01:37 AM

Lawson, I thought you'd be interested in this recently released 1964 live recording of TWNBAY by the J.C. Heard & Bill Perkins Quartet with a great solo by Joe Pass @ 3'22":