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St Thomas and a few other Latin (calypso, salsa) jazz tunes aren't so well served by "jazz blues"... this is all hypothetical conjecture. What really is the point of this thread???
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12-28-2018 05:40 PM
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Classic T-Bone lick. Play a diminished chord shape on the top four strings with the melody note sounding a minor 3rd above the tonic (in this case, we're in Bb so in 8th position with the pinky on the Db, 9th fret) and bend the whole thing up a quarter-tone.
Originally Posted by pingu
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The point (in question form): If one specialises in the Jazz Blues form (as played by Jazz musicians, not Blues musicians), do you think it's possible that one would be equipped to handle most other situations in Jazz? Originally Posted by rintincop
Obviously, you'd have plenty of Tonic language (when treating the I as maj instead of Dom), Dominant language, minor tonic language (including it's 2 - 5 leading to bar 9) and all types of alt dom language. The 6 - 2 - 5 turnaround (and it's thousands of variants) is obviously quite prevalent in a ton of old tunes.
When I track the course of "development" of certain Hard Boppers like Jackie McLean, I notice his Bird-like beginnings in Bop (Lights Out, 4,5 and 6 etc), then a gradual "hardening" into a predilection for Jazz Blues forms (late 50's early 60's like Jackie's Bag)), then Modal (Bluesnik) and experimental post modal (Destination Out,, One Step Beyond etc). For his Modal and post Modal recordings he seemed to take certain devices (lets say a whole tone idea for example) and stretch it out to last several bars whereas earlier in his career such an idea would have been used for only half a bar.
So from this I'd suggest you could make Jazz Blues (ala Hard Bop) a kind of home base from which you could use your material for earlier Bop based tunes, or most of the Post Bop forms. But I'm interested to know what others such as yourself think, and in particular, which kinds of forms or tunes this "home base" would be ill prepared for. St Thomas and/or Calypso can still use material used in Jazz Blues (doesn't Rollins in fact do exactly this?). Modal (all kinds really) stuff is no problem as Jazz Blues is kinda like modularised kind of Modal.
Tunes which might require heavy MM mode usage could provide a challenge, but here again it depends on how you might tool yourself for your Jazz Blues moves.
Personally, I have developed ways of handling Alt Dom situations without thinking of MM modes, which I'm not a fan of. As much of the post Berklee school of Jazz places heavy emphasis on all things MM, I'm more than happy to have as my tutors the likes of McLean, Dexter, Rollins, Clifford, etc. In other words, If a Jazz Blues home base has no open doors to the world of MM, then I'm ok with that.
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This is getting tedious (so I don't know why I'm posting here!). Nearly 80 posts and still going.
Blues is black cotton-field slave music and standards are white musical show tunes, romantic ballads, etc.
If you're going to play a blues it should, presumably, sound like a blues otherwise it just becomes an exercise in getting round some changes. And you can't play every standard as though it were a blues, it's ridiculous.
If it's just an exercise then you may as well start with standards and say they'll help you play the blues. What's the difference?
Except, of course, it won't help you play the blues because a blues is not a standard, it's a different feel - or should be.
So: false.
Round and round the mulberry bush...
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If you insist on conflating the two then the only difference between (jazz) blues and standards is... the number of bars?
Pointless.
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This is a jazz blues. It sounds like a blues, as it should. You can't play My Romance, All The Things You Are, Stardust, or even Take The A Train like this. Ridiculous!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
haha, that's like saying you can't play My Romance like you can play ATTYA...
Look, If, like some others, you don't get the point of this thread, just say so once, and clear out. That's what I'd do. As for the idea that if you can play standards, then you could use that knowledge of how to negotiate jazz blues, well yeah, I have acknowledged that. And yeah, it may a subtle difference to you when considering the reverse, but to others it may not be so subtle.
I've read that some of the greats (Bird, Diz etc) learned from a home base, with Diz it was playing changes in nothing but Bb for many years. Bird had very few pet tunes he learned very thoroughly in one key before he felt the need to explore other keys (which he most certainly did). It's OK to learn a favourite tune or form extremely well before exploring others. Many teachers will not agree, but that's fine...
If you're still thinking what's motivating this thread, I'll also offer this: Everyday (on this forum even) people are wishing to cross over from Blues / Rock to Jazz without a clue how to proceed. I maintain that Jazz Blues is a great stepping stone for these players. You get comfortable with the form while gradually losing your rock/blues habits and replace them with Bop language that gets you from one chord to the next. I have helped people learn this way and it seems to work. Getting these people to learn the old show tunes does not work as well. Sticking with dozens of ways to get around Jazz Blues for a few years is not as boring as some might think, otherwise Bird, Trane, McLean, Stitt etc would not have spent years at it.
After reading all the comments, I'm probably as certain as I ever have been that you either get why it's cool to have Jazz Blues as a home base for all your Jazz explorations, or you don't. And if you don't, that cool too...
Happy New Year (and may all the threads you start in future be more useful than mine!
).
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Just change the title to:
True or False? Mastering Jazz Blues gives *many* tools you need for Jazz...
and you wouldn't get any difference of opinion. God forbid any contention created on a forum...
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Now, that I agree with. Absolutely, good idea. Originally Posted by princeplanet
phew
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Oh right. So you can only use blues language on 12 bar progressions
(See how stupid internet arguments work)
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Uh? Who said that? Originally Posted by christianm77
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Read the second part of my comment Originally Posted by ragman1
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Haha you’re mad Originally Posted by djg
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great , thanks P , I’ll give it a go Originally Posted by PMB
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Oh - they did that: Originally Posted by djg
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You people aren't serious. Here we go for another 80 posts.
yawn
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Didn't Louis? Originally Posted by djg
that was fun. i wonder why it never caught on. i bet a black guy could even make "hello dolly" sound good.you know i'm just messing around, right?
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Well the telly’s shit and I can’t practice Originally Posted by ragman1
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Look, pp is obviously teaching or giving instruction of some kind. As I see it, he's taking blues guys who are basically using pentatonics and blues licks and stretching out their lines to make jazz. And, having got that, those lines or ideas can be used over standards or other forms which are not the blues format.
That's it, I think. And no one, certainly not me, is going to argue that it's not an effective, viable method. It's not new, of course, but it doesn't matter, it's effective.
Unfortunately the thread's been presented in a 'this is the answer to everything' sort of way which kind of upset the cart.
So that's it. The whole idea could have been explained very easily (in one paragraph, probably) ages ago. But here we are!
Am I right or am I right?
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I don’t think you understand the OP Originally Posted by ragman1
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Can you help this guy? Originally Posted by princeplanet
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So explain. Originally Posted by christianm77
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See above Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by djg
Grüße
Guten Rutsch und ein Frohes Neues Jahr!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Can't be bothered. I think it's explained.
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