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And you, Tommo
Originally Posted by TOMMO
Guten Rutsch und ein Frohes Neues Jahr!
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12-29-2018 12:25 PM
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Then why ask? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Firstly, I don't wanna give the impression I'm a teacher, I run a studio business where I deal with a lot of guitar players. The ones who seem tired of the same ol' same ol' I have given my free time to in order to help them out of a rut and give them a fresh challenge, not just in music, but in life in general (older rockers are a miserable lot for a variety of reasons). Nearly all of them say they hate Jazz, yes hate! So I play them some recordings and tell some stories and some of them become intrigued. I'll stay in touch with some of these guys over a period of years and give them some new challenges when they're ready. This is also in the interests of furthering Jazz awareness and appreciation. Originally Posted by ragman1
But what I like to do is not merely "stretch out their blues lines" and pretend it's enough to play like that over any kind of Jazz. Instead, at a point, I will introduce a few Bop devices and show them which chords they work against, why they work , and how they resolve into various other chords. They're never gonna learn all that I have over the years, and to be honest, only a few have "progressed" to use their new ideas for other forms of Jazz (some into standards, but most wanna go into modal/ jazz rock stuff)...
Now I don't know how you guys go about amassing language, but I take it very seriously and as I've said in other threads, I like to roll my own, basically retrofitting my fave ideas I steal from horns and piano players. I'll turn an idea, motif or lick into a "device" and apply it to all chord types in all positions to the point where it's ready to plug in, in any key or position. This works for me and I can use these devices in any kind of Jazz, but for the last couple of years I've been road testing them all in Jazz Blues first, because I like the challenge of changing devices for every bar and mixing them up.
Might sound formulaic (and excessive), but I have 60 Etudes for Jazz Blues in each key, each one based on a pair of devices (one ascending, one descending). If I'm helping someone to break away from pentatonic noodling, I'll show someone a few of these and demonstrate how they work. Theres a lot of chromatic encircling mixed with a lot of extensions, pretty much what most Boppers do. When I explain to people (after I show them all the required inversions of simple drop 2 chords and arpeggios) that Jazz soloing is mainly about embellishing chord tones, the penny starts to drop ("oh, so you play something different for every chord!").
Anyway, I have been telling some guys that what I show them can be used for most other kinds of Jazz (which is what I believe) but was kinda curious if anyone here might disagree, and why. Mainly for my own interest and use, but also in case there's something I hadn't considered that I should pass on to others... To be honest, I would have liked to get into more detail about what it is about the Jazz Blues form and it's harmonic idiosyncrasies that make it unique, as well as aspects that also make it universal For example going from I6 or I7 to IV7, and IV7 back to I7 or I6, or even #IVo to I7. Then there's the min 2- 5 -1 into bar 9 where the minor chord probably shouldn't be treated as min6 nor min#7 and the reasons why...
But then I suppose you might as well say that just about every standard tune has idiosyncrasies that make that particular tune stand apart from others (II7 in A train etc). Still there's something mysteriously cool about the Jazz Blues progression which probably has much to do with where it came from - basic 12 bar blues which is itself rather mysteriously cool and seems to defy European or Schenkerian type analysis.
BTW, here's what I might play to the old rocker that says he doesn't like Jazz:
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I think the thread subject has more then sufficient merit to qualify for the standards of an interesting internet forum post. I don't expect it to be published in Nature anytime soon but let's keep trying.
That said my answer is false.
Jazz blues can be treated as "blues". Elements of blues tonality and style can be emphasized. Minor major clash, chord tones that are chromatic to the key, blue notes, common blues pentatonic phrases etc. This approach can be used in other standards as well but it is not a good general approach to learn non-blues music.
Jazz blues can also be treated as if it's a (somewhat strange) Tin Pan Alley progression and can be used for practicing "running the changes". But then there are better standards for practicing changes. Blues is not gonna be as good a major ii V I vehicle as Tune up. Nor it'll be as good a vehicle to practice modulation like ATTYA.Last edited by Tal_175; 12-29-2018 at 01:48 PM.
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I agree, nor will a Jazz Blues progression prepare you for a thousand other series of chords, cadences or modulations to be found in other tunes. BUT, it will give you a platform to practice what to play against major, dom, minor, diminished and alt dom chords (all kinds). A coupla years of this and applying what you've learned to other tunes is just a matter of getting used to putting the chords (and attendant material) together in different orders and arrangements. Same shit, different bucket... Originally Posted by Tal_175
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princeplanet -
I don't mean to be dismissive but you're only extrapolating from what I said. It's the same thing.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
A coupla years of this and applying what you've learned to other tunes is just a matter of getting used to putting the chords (and attendant material) together in different orders and arrangements. Same shit, different bucket...
I agree that one can go pretty far with harmony on the jazz blues. And should. All to the good!
But - I also think that the form is limiting. Phrasing approaches can be different with other forms and different length sections, etc.
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Great point. For my own practice I do a 24 bar version of Jazz Blues as well as the 12 bar version. This is to help facilitate longer lines for greater duration of a particular chord, but yeah, even so, phrase lengths in Jazz Blues can sound effective if based on the various ways to do the question / answer thing... See that's the problem with practicing continuous 8th or 16th note lines in Etudes, you forget to breathe! Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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Yeah, most if not all of the common movements within one key are present, and relatable to the basic 3 functions of the key, and best of all you can see how the subs relate to each other. Originally Posted by princeplanet
I agree, nor will a Jazz Blues progression prepare you for a thousand other series of chords, cadences or modulations to be found in other tunes. BUT, it will give you a platform to practice what to play against major, dom, minor, diminished and alt dom chords (all kinds). A coupla years of this and applying what you've learned to other tunes is just a matter of getting used to putting the chords (and attendant material) together in different orders and arrangements. Same shit, different bucket...
Because of the wealth of variations, it’s pretty uniquely useful actually. The only thing like it is looking at Rhythm Changes, but I would say blues is more useful.
It’s a bloody useful teaching tool if nothing else.
And you can learn all of this stuff and still choose to play a blues differently from a rhythm changes or whatever (I mean why would you, but anyway) - not doing this is imo missing a trick either as a learner or teacher.
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OK, cool, I thought you meant something slightly different when you wrote "stretching out their blues lines"... Originally Posted by ragman1
The hardest thing is to get rockers to not play bluesy lines all the time, It can take many years, I think, as the tendency is embedded very deeply - which is why you need to offer cool alternatives they can assimilate into a comfortable form.
FWIW, in my own learning, prior to attacking tunes, I tried to familiarise myself with these commonly found progressions:
6 Common Chord Relationships To Help You Play Jazz Better • Jazz Advice
But after a while it seemed too much work - almost as easy to just learn the friggin' tunes! ....
With the Blues tunes, I like these because the heads are cool...
Freight Trane-Trane
Freddie the Freeloader-Miles
Things Ain't What They Used To Be-Duke
Blues In the Closet-Pettiford
Opus de Funk-Silver
Rock A Bye-Benson
Sundown-Wes
Straight No Chaser-Monk
Clockwise-Benson
K.C. Blues-Bird
Mister P.C.-Trane
Riot-Chous-Garland
Bessie's Blues-Trane
All Blues-Miles
Unit Seven-Wes
Au Privave-Bird
Blue Monk-Monk
Walkin'-Miles
West Coast Blues-Wes
The Thumb-Wes
Blues in Hoss Flat-Basie
Swedish Pastry-Kessel
Last edited by princeplanet; 12-29-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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I came to the same conclusion. I'm pleased you agree! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Well TBF I did say something similar about 40 posts ago, but y'know :-) Originally Posted by princeplanet
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No, I meant adding notes to the pentatonic to make longer lines, etc etc. As if that's all there is to it, of course... :-) Originally Posted by princeplanet
Tell me about it. They've got to hear and feel it themselves and want to be able to do it. They've got to have the sense of lines, not just licks or call/response phrases. For someone used to playing in fairly shortish bursts, the thought of 3 or 4 bars of eighths is extremely daunting.The hardest thing is to get rockers to not play bluesy lines all the time
I don't disagree at all with your approach at all, it's entirely valid. But I'd add arps & lines, shape-based runs, and the skilful inclusion of altered notes (b9, b6, etc) in them. The whole caboodle in fact - not an easy thing, as we all know.
And, of course, when NOT to use blues effects, i.e. when it doesn't suit. That's important too.
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Originally Posted by PMB
Yay thanks that's great
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On topic ....
I think the relationship between blues language / licks
and straight melody is very interesting ....
I was working on the Etta James version
of 'At Last'
(not blues changes I know)
and I love that she sings deep blues
one second and pretty the next
sometimes all in one phrase ....
Magnificent ...
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I just want to add that the Bebop Guitar Improv Series (which many of you know is by Richie Zellon), uses "Bebop Blue" as a way of teaching a person to play Jazz. As was mentioned earlier, various major and minor 2-5s are thrown in as well as various measures with altered. It culminates with some variations of Bird's Blues progression.
Still, he has another course in which he directly teaches soloing over the Rhythm Changes and "jazz standards based on major, minor, and extended tonalities." So his approach gives credence to the idea that Jazz Blues can give you a great foundation or "tools" as one of the respondents in this thread wrote.
Just my 2 cents worth for the conversation.
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I grew up playing both blues blues and jazz blues. I think that Jazz blues did noto give me the rhythmic sense to play the calypso tune "St Thomas". Or "hold Em Joe" or "Fungii Mama", all calypso jazz standards.
Nor did jazz blues help me a lot with the bright, sweet, triadic nature of the extensive happy C "Ionian" South American folk music of the first 8 bars. That style is where so many jazz artist do a poor job with the tune, imo. South American music did not evolve the blues. The rhythm is quite different. Thus Latin jazz needs some extra-curricular work beyond jazz blues, imo. When jazz moved into South America it didn't bring a lot of the blues with it. Of course there are many exceptions (Poncho Sanchez, Eddie Palmieri Chucho Valdes) but they are all pretty much American based...
Jazz blues experience is a great for the last 8 bars, but not so good for the first 8 bars in my opinion.
Authentic Latin "St Thomas" changes (not the Real Book's)
|| C | C | G7 | C | ... not really bluesy or ii V-ish. Very bright, happy "Ionian" South American folk.
| C | C | G7 | C | ... not really bluesy or ii V-ish. Very "Ionian"
| E-7 | A7 | D-7 | G7 | ... here's your jazzy ii V stuff
| C C/E | F F#dim | C/G G7 | C :|| ...... get's bluesy the last 4 bars
Does anybody see , or hear, my point? Jazz blues will get you through perhaps 90% of the repertoire.Last edited by rintincop; 12-30-2018 at 11:35 AM.
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The bulk of the jazz blues harmonic world is attached here. I agree it does touch on about every harmonic aspect needed for the standard jazz repertoire. I wonder though if it prepares a player for ballad playing like "I Can't Get Started" and again "St Thomas type calypso folk tunes.
C major blues (per Barry Harris)
C7.Blues.Scales.pdf
C minor blues (extrapolated per Barry Harris)
Minor.Blues.SCALES.pdfLast edited by rintincop; 12-30-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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St. Thomas (song) - Wikipedia Originally Posted by djg
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If I was going to like a super folky version I would do this: Originally Posted by rintincop
| C | C | G | C |
| C | C | G | C |
| C | % | F | G |
| C | F | C G | C |
With a little pattern on just the triads....
So from this template you can understand the Rollins harmony, relate it to three chords. St Thomas changes are obviously very typical standards type changes on this framework.
In this sense the analysis of it is very similar to what I would do on a blues.
What you play on the top of that functional understanding is up to you, your taste and your understanding of style and language. But I think that's what princeplanet was talking about - the basic backbone, the underlying stuff which you use as the basis for the decorative art of music.
And this way, if you really want to play a bright, latin sounding, Ionian rhythm changes or something - and know how to play that style, you absolutely can. And of course blow bebop on happy birthday etc. You may not want to... but you can.
But the understanding of stylistic harmony is a separate issue - in my mind - to the basic functions. Stylistic harmony is where it gets a bit more fun, of course, but without knowing the absolute basis, being able to peel back the layers of surface complexity, you can't have that fun so easily.
Trad jazz is a great teacher for this stuff, for instance, as I'm sure cuban music is too.Last edited by christianm77; 12-30-2018 at 02:49 PM.
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Here's an example of how I would take the basic framework and build it up again:
| C | F | C | % |
| F | % | C | % |
| G | % | C | % |
Maybe do something a little churchy?
| C E+ | F F#o7 | C/G G#o7 | Am C7 |
| F | F#o7 | C/G | G#o7 |
| Am7 D7 | G7sus4 | F | C G7sus4 |
Something a bit swingy (30s)
| C6 C7/E | F F#o7 | C6 Dm7 | Ebo7 C/E |
| F6 | F#o7 | C6 | C6/E Ebo7 |
| Dm7 | G7 | C/E Ebo7 | Dm7 G7
Sideslippy ii-V bop
| C6/9 C7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Abm7 Db7 | Gm7 C7 |
| F7 | F#m7b5 B7b9 | Em7 A7 | Ebm7 Ab7 |
| Dm7 | G7 | Em7 Ebm7 | Dm7 G7 |
That one was a comp I might actually use - the idea borrowed from Peter Bernstein, which is don't return to the I chord anymore than you have to, keep things in motion.
But you get the idea? In practice the validity of these changes would depend on the melody.
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xxxxx.....
"St. Thomas" is among the most recognizable instrumentals in the repertoire of American jazz tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins. Although Rollins is commonly credited as its composer, the tune is based on the traditional English song "The Lincolnshire Poacher". By way of the folk process, "The Lincolnshire Poacher" evolved into a nursery song in the Virgin Islands, which Rollins' mother sang to him when he was a child.
"St. Thomas" became popular when it was released on Rollins's 1956 album Saxophone Colossus, though it had been recorded by Randy Weston in 1955 under the title "Fire Down There", on his Get Happy album.Last edited by rintincop; 01-02-2019 at 08:50 PM.
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Are you sure you are replying to the right person? Originally Posted by rintincop
Or are you just trying to do my head in lol?
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I would say... it's pretty hard to be a Jazz Player.... if you can't play the Blues. It's one of those vanilla things.... you tryin to play Jazz and you don't have any grease or dirt etc... Blues are just one of a few very physical harmonic aspects of being a jazz player. It's not just embellish with Blue Notes.... It's where the Blue Notes are from and what they imply.... again not just a scale or embellishments... Jazz has very style-specific Harmonic tendencies.
Jazz Blues is not just playing pentatonics etc... it's the relationship they have with chords. You can sound very bluesy and not play pentatonics or Blue notes. (you play blue note harmonic relationships)... they become implied.
I remember years ago having arguments with this grad student, medium guitarist... lousy jazz guitarist about Blues Form.... Of which he was locked into the typical V7 I relationship as being what defines a blues style or tune. So I posted a Vid of playing a typical 12 bar blues.... He didn't even notice that the V chord was never played...
I still believe princeplanet's point is good... not the end result, but a much better starting point as compared to coming from a classical perspective. (you still have to finish, get there)
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