Tunes that have multiple bars per chord.

[princeplanet]

Yup, so modern cats like to really stretch out on drawn out vamps, and we all know the classic Modal tunes where we can do the same. But what are some tunes where the changes allow some time to develop longer lines per chord?

Simpler blues can allow this, but I find that taking your regular Jazz Blues - with all the usual harmonic embellishing (2-5's etc) and doubling the bars (24 bar blues), can be fun to blow over. Sure, One can always "double up" on any tune to serve as a vehicle for improv, but the head melody would usually sound weird if stretched out that much ...

So, apart from Blues or Modal tunes, what are the songs you like to blow over that give you a chance to stretch out your lines over each chord?

[M-ster]

I think any time you double-time a tune, you'll challenge yourself like this. Take any ballad and double-time it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yeah. The inverse thing is that it really helps shedding ballads with busy changes that way.

As far as heads, it's also perfect for shedding some "behind" triplet phrasing. Quarter note triplets "rush" regular quarter notes. So, at a basic level, those are good starting points. Start your regular quarter note melody one beat behind and it "catches up" over a few beats. You can do the same with triplet eighth notes subbing for regular 8ths .

Quarter triplets also "drag" eighths. So you can use them to phrase a behind feel.

All of this is BS in text form though. Sorry. We should do some doubletime on "after you've gone" p.s. thread. I can post some of my amateur BS. One of my favorite topics.

My favorite versions of this are when players somewhat disguise this, or when different players in an ensemble are implying double time more than others . Keith Jarrett trio does this a ton. May start with the drums or bass kind of pushing double time, and then, by the end, everyone is . But when you go back, you realize that it had to be that timebase from the beginning basically anyway. Just kind of disguised.

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[MarkRhodes]

"Sweet Georgia Brown."

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'll Remember April? It's usually played uptempo, but it starts with four measures of GMaj followed by four measures of Gmin. Or are you looking for a whole tune like that?

[bako]

Windows by Chick Corea
Open Your Eyes by Chick Corea
Saga For Harrison Crabfeathers by Steve Kuhn

[jameslovestal]

This song 'hangs' on some chords for multiple bars, especially the first 12 bars. Decades ago my teacher had me focus on those first 12 bars as it relates to comping; playing different chord voicings and \ or alternate chords instead of just hanging on a single chord bar after bar.

[ragman1]

Yes, I was going to say Caravan too, god knows how many bars of that C7 thing... I remember it well :-)

[John A.]

Yup, so modern cats like to really stretch out on drawn out vamps, and we all know the classic Modal tunes where we can do the same. But what are some tunes where the changes allow some time to develop longer lines per chord?

Simpler blues can allow this, but I find that taking your regular Jazz Blues - with all the usual harmonic embellishing (2-5's etc) and doubling the bars (24 bar blues), can be fun to blow over. Sure, One can always "double up" on any tune to serve as a vehicle for improv, but the head melody would usually sound weird if stretched out that much ...

So, apart from Blues or Modal tunes, what are the songs you like to blow over that give you a chance to stretch out your lines over each chord?

Invitation
Caravan
In Your Own Sweet way (if you play the Eb interlude between choruses)
I'll Remember April (4 bars of G plus 4 bars Gmin)

John

[christianm77]

Limehouse Blues
China Boy
Honeysuckle Rose
Sweet Georgia Brown

[christianm77]

Treat rhythm changes as a modal tune.

A lot of early improvisers tended to take a somewhat generalised view of the chords. It was quite common not to articulate chord IV in lines for instance. If you look at things that way, the whole a section of RC becomes a Bb vamp. Listening to early Basie really shows that to me.

OTOH you could also look at it from the point of view of dominant. Perhaps an altered dominant.

All turnarounds and ii v I s etc are are movement on simple key centres. So all jazz is modal to an extent. Bebop changes tend to dress up simple formulas with lots of decorating chords, but we see from Barry Harris that the basic progression is often very simple.

So you can modalise a lot of progressions.

Another thing is that early jazz tunes often have static modal vamps for solos:

Listen to where Wynton’s version takes the solos:

[christianm77]

In a sense most of my playing is over very simple chord progressions. I just block everything down and build it up again from there. Movement is introduced which may or may not have anything to do with the sub formulae in the blowing changes.

It all works and it all sounds great.

There’s no difference to me between the a section of Softly and So What for instance.

But I think that’s true of Miles in the 50s.... listen to miles v Cannonball on So What and then compare to Autumn Leaves. Miles was always modal imo - not always observing the changes, Cannonball more harmonic playing changes over everything, even vamps.

Really the modal/functional dichotomy comes down to what do you emphasise - cadences or chord colour?

[matt.guitarteacher]

In a sense most of my playing is over very simple chord progressions. I just block everything down and build it up again from there. Movement is introduced which may or may not have anything to do with the sub formulae in the blowing changes.

It all works and it all sounds great.

There’s no difference to me between the a section of Softly and So What for instance.

But I think that’s true of Miles in the 50s.... listen to miles v Cannonball on So What and then compare to Autumn Leaves. Miles was always modal imo - not always observing the changes, Cannonball more harmonic playing changes over everything, even vamps.

Really the modal/functional dichotomy comes down to what do you emphasise - cadences or chord colour?

Ligon talks about generalization vs specificity and about learning both for variety' s sake. Generalizing the tonic chord is a big part of his improv material. He has tons of transcribed examples from the greats in this in his books.

He wouldn't call it modal, but once you start chromatically approaching tonic etc, you get everything anyway?...

[MarkRhodes]

Treat rhythm changes as a modal tune.

A lot of early improvisers tended to take a somewhat generalised view of the chords. It was quite common not to articulate chord IV in lines for instance. If you look at things that way, the whole a section of RC becomes a Bb vamp. Listening to early Basie really shows that to me.

When Mickey Baker talks about vamps in his first (and most widely circulated and still in print) book (from 1955 or so) rhythm changes (A section, anyway) is treated as a vamp.
Knowing this helps explain why some tunes are thought of "rhythm changes" tunes even though their most commonly used progressions may not make it seem so. "Tuxedo Junction," for example, or "Flyin' Home." Many Slim Gaillard tunes have a rhythm changes A-section but may not feel like it when you're singing them. (This goes for "Straighten Up And Fly Right" too.)

In Herb Ellis' book "Rhythm Shapes" he teaches a few dozen 8-bar phrases for the A section of rhythm changes (-there are many 8-bar phrases for the B section to but that's a different animal). They're mainly based on one shape of a Bb chord. (Or, a succession of those shapes. That is, Bb major in a few different positions.) Herb knows how to make the changes but he relates the whole to a few simple shapes.

Here's a short Tommy Harkenrider YouTube lesson on common rhythm changes intro that Tiny Grimes and Slim Gaillard used (often).

[christianm77]

Yeah any turnaround can sub for any other.

I worked it by studying playing swing actually, so the slim and slam thing is pertinent.

Once I realised that swing players did this, I checked out bop and realised - oh they do that too.... and then Barry confirmed what I’d already noticed.

I actually think there’s a few modern oriented players who don’t realise you can do this in changes based music even though they play all kinds of crazy stuff on vamps because they haven’t played enough historical music to spot the patterns. It’s the exact same logic... the difference is in the style of the embellishments.

Again I like Steve Coleman’s name for it ‘invisible paths....’

[christianm77]

I also think it’s more common for players to complicate simple things rather than strip away complication to find simplicity underneath.

But the process works both ways.

[MarkRhodes]

Christian mentioned "Limehouse Blues" Great example.
Here's a fun version. Frank Vignola (middle) looks SO young here. Jimmy Rosenberg's a monster.

[christianm77]

[Reg]

So ... keeping it simple..... Take any bop tune... Christian is an expert, he usually has great points etc... anyway my point is when you solo or even compose a melody... the melodic line is a relationship with the changes....

Again simple.... you either create that relationship to each chord or to a combination of chords, (chord pattern).

You can still have any BS you want going on.... So with that I VI II V.... you can have all the chords be a Chord Pattern, which makes them function as basically 1 chord.

Bbmaj7 G-7 C-7 F7 becomes Bb ... So the guidelines of how you use notes.... all have a relationship to Bb. Sure you could say your still just playing the changes in the key of Bb.... but the organization of how notes interact with each other can change. You could play call answer game... say 1st time Mixo type of dom. blues then on next time play minor version of. Basically the simple Tonic -Dominant or I V approach.... of which there are many... but the point is your not play changes... your creating relationships and developing them,
The relationships are using melodic organizations.... Dominant and Tonic note organizations with relationship to Chord Patterns, Groups of chords. And the Chord pattern reference can also change.

Basically the trick of using this approach is to be able to recognize CHORD PATTERNS.... and what they can become and how to create melodic relationships with them.

Then basic root motion of the chord patterns can be developed.... Subs... modal interchange... there are many standard harmonic common practice approaches. You can also change the actual chords.... Keep same root motion and develop the changes.

I mean when you have a few players soloing.... that's what you generally do, right, we're not a backing track.

Anyway... what you start to develop is melodic ways to connect chords and chord patterns with ORGANIZATION. you get past basic diatonic connections... you create new connections between changes by expanding what's just notated etc...

And again the spatial or form thing becomes a big part of how you organize the relationships.... Call and answer is example of spatial and form organization. Simple but example.

[princeplanet]

I'm glad this thread has drifted into a discussion about "generalising", among other things... Sounds like I'm not the only guy who wants to bust loose from the changes straightjacket. Mind you, I get bored real quick if I hear someone overplaying the tonic sound and ignoring the changes, after all, any ol' rock player can do that all day! But sometimes it provides contrast, relief, or even excitement to go general. Take the last 2 bar turnaround in a Jazz Blues. You can play V or V alt, tonic, major blues scale, minor blues scale or just about anything and sound good, heck, it can usually sound even more interesting than just hugging the changes, right?

So yeah, finding ways to play one "sound" for 4 bars (instead of just 2 or even one) can be cool for the odd longer line where it feels right. At least until I figure out how Cannonball played his impossibly hip, long sinewy lines over stacks of changes, and sometimes managing to spell out more changes than there actually are! ...

[christianm77]

Well I can think of a few ways to do it. I've always found looking to the music first and theory second is the best way to go. Go and dig into Cannonball....

[Reg]

But generalizing can and usually does become much more complicated than just playing changes, with or without melody references.

It's like your playing a compound line that has many harmonic relationships going on. It's fairly simple to play a counter line.... in any style... but add a few more lines and also a few more set of changes.... over that 8 bar phrase...and make it feel like one chord... and then even more important, It need to be locked in ... groove, pocket whatever you want to call.... making the line feel or create that perception that it has a repeating... something. I can't stand it when I start burning through some tune... and I can't make it feel like something. A pulse with some type of cycle... that creates life etc... Or when your comping for a soloist and he randomly phrases through the tune.

Anyway... personally I can play through basically any tune or set of changes... mechanically ... even create excitement and entertain, 1st time, not really a big deal... but to create as Prince said... long melodic lines that are in the pocket and connect changes and chord patterns and have the macro and micro shape also support.... you need to have a concept , a style that your want create and reflect how the changes are working together... not just the changes or melody, how they are working together in relationships ....to develop cool solos that feels right.
Even when we don't really like a style or player... when they get it right.... yea.

[pingu]

Bye bye blackbird ....

[Little Jay]

You can pretty much play an Eb major scale over the entire progression of There Will Never Be Another You (if you avoid the D note on the Bbm7) and get away with it.....

[docsteve]

Sweet Sue, just you
Won‘t you come home Bill Bailey
It‘s a Good Day (Peggy Lee IIRC)

A lot of the pre-bop stuff, really.


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