How to solo on Blue Bossa?

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 02:53 AM

Hi!

I tried to find new approaches to me by changing the style of background of this almost over-used jazz standard Blue Bossa. I don't know how it went but maybe it sounds some how smooth jazz.

It would be nice to know what kind of approaches and ideas you might use with this song.

If you are interested, you can find tabs for first and second solo also backing track from here:

http://mikkokarhula.wixsite.com/mikkokarhula

Kindest, Mikko

**ragman1** · 10-15-2017, 07:14 AM

Honestly? It was beautifully and brilliantly played and you're without doubt a highly skilled musician... but, as Blue Bossa, it's unrecognisable. I know it says Solos 1 -3 but I think even they should contain something of the original.

I'd be interested to hear both melody and solos together, I might be missing something. But lovely stuff, definitely.

**grahambop** · 10-15-2017, 07:19 AM

Hi Mikko

I thought that worked well with the backing style and nylon guitar, great playing.

I did this tune a few years ago using the Aebersold backing, not sure what my approach would be called, basically just bashing my way through the changes I guess!

**grahambop** · 10-15-2017, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Honestly? It was beautifully and brilliantly played and you're without doubt a highly skilled musician... but, as Blue Bossa, it's unrecognisable. I know it says Solos 1 -3 but I think even they should contain something of the original.

I'd be interested to hear both melody and solos together, I might be missing something. But lovely stuff, definitely.

The thread title is how to solo on Blue Bossa, so that didn't bother me!

**lawson-stone** · 10-15-2017, 08:41 AM

I really enjoyed it. I think it's great to depart completely from the melody for the solo, let the chord-changes lead you wherever they will take you. I wish I had that talent, and maybe someday I will, but I love hearing someone do that. It makes the changes strange, fresh, and new all over again.

**ragman1** · 10-15-2017, 08:51 AM

But, Graham, that was one of your greatest hits of menny, menny years ago... not that it's not extremely well done :-)

Seriously, the OP said he wanted to "find new approaches to me by changing the style of background of this almost over-used jazz standard".

I think he's done that, and very well, but I'd still like to hear it in context with the melody. That was just my point, really.

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Honestly? It was beautifully and brilliantly played and you're without doubt a highly skilled musician... but, as Blue Bossa, it's unrecognisable. I know it says Solos 1 -3 but I think even they should contain something of the original.

I'd be interested to hear both melody and solos together, I might be missing something. But lovely stuff, definitely.

Thank you Ragman1!

You have point here. But the "problem" to me was that when I changed backing track Blue Bossa melody didn't work anymore. It's because this tempo in the video is quite high for smooth jazz style playing and too low for Blue Bossa melody.

So I decided to make melodic solos and try to search new lines for me outside the jazz guitar style I normally hear played on this song. It became maybe like other song.

Cheers

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Hi Mikko

I thought that worked well with the backing style and nylon guitar, great playing.

I did this tune a few years ago using the Aebersold backing, not sure what my approach would be called, basically just bashing my way through the changes I guess!

Thanks Graham!

Very well played! Actually that style that you played is not my strongest. I come from gypsy jazz and other ethnic styles to jazz. Thank you for your video! I will check out some of your nice phrases.

Cheers!

**ragman1** · 10-15-2017, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula

the "problem" to me was that when I changed backing track Blue Bossa melody didn't work anymore.

I know :-)

But I still think you can do something with that style. It will definitely work, and be very nice, but it needs some kind of adjustment.

(edit)

You could play the melody with octaves and maybe fill the tune out a bit with some chromaticism. Also fill in the gaps with some graceful lines or chord sounds. I think you can keep the speed, it would be fine. To be honest, once you've got the tune out of the way, who cares?

Try googling YouTube for Blue Bossa gypsy, smooth jazz, etc. It's there.

**grahambop** · 10-15-2017, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

But, Graham, that was one of your greatest hits of menny, menny years ago... not that it's not extremely well done :-)

Seriously, the OP said he wanted to "find new approaches to me by changing the style of background of this almost over-used jazz standard".

He also said it would be nice to know what ideas and approaches we would use on this song.

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

Sounds good. For sure, you could just rephrase the melody with a 16th note feel, with added or repeated notes and synchopation. Or you could, effectively, write a new tune based on these changes.

Thank you! Nice ideas. I will try that also.

Cheers!

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

He also said it would be nice to know what ideas and approaches we would use on this song.

To me it's about sharing ideas. We are personalities and hear different details and overall things from each other's playing. So I will certainly try to play some phrases from your solo, Graham. It was very well played. I guess I never will/can play that style but there can be some interesting things that maybe would help me.

**grahambop** · 10-15-2017, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula

To me it's about sharing ideas. We are personalities and hear different details and overall things from each other's playing. So I will certainly try to play some phrases from your solo, Graham. It was very well played. I guess I never will/can play that style but there can be some interesting things that maybe would help me.

Thanks Mikko! Actually I thought some of your ideas in solo no. 1 were quite similar to how I play.

By the way you can play faster than I can! Maybe I'll copy some of your ideas too...

**destinytot** · 10-15-2017, 04:31 PM

This is pretty - and pretty inevitable, too:

Despite the considerable merits of the performance (delightful, to my ears) and the arrangement (simple, but effective), when it comes to certain 'jazz' originals (such as this one), I'm for sacrificing my darlings - and preserving the idiom for which it was conceived.

Because the title Blue Bossa warrants honest (and not disingenuous) consideration - and the connection to Brazil goes no deeper than the title.

If you listen closely, they're saying (to borrow a phrase from John 'Birks' G.), "If you can hear it, it's yours!" And to paraphrase Louis Armstrong, "If you don't hear it, it's not for you."

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-15-2017, 06:19 PM

My Brazilian teacher claimed that Blue Bossa is not a bossa. I tried, but I don't understand what he meant.

He also claimed that Bossa Nova was an era, not a musical style. He thought the musical style was samba, noting that samba has lots of variants.

I like Ana's performance. I guess I won't get involved in labeling it.

My thoughts about soloing, in general, vary from one day to the next. Today, my thinking is going in this direction. Strum the chords, or play a backing track and start scatting. When you sing a line you like, play it on the guitar. Repeat.

Today, I'm thinking that this approach gets you closer to the self-expression which is at the core of jazz (or so I think, today). It gets you away from formula based approaches -- which I'm denigrating probably because I'm no good at them, even though some players make great music that way.

Maybe it's this. I'd rather hear an intermediate player play something heartfelt, even if it's simple. I don't want to listen to an intermediate player running formulae. But, an advanced player is going to make music either way.

**ragman1** · 10-15-2017, 06:46 PM

"If you can hear it, it's yours!" And to paraphrase Louis Armstrong, "If you don't hear it, it's not for you."

Absolutely.

My Brazilian teacher claimed that Blue Bossa is not a bossa

And, being Brazilian, he would know, one supposes. I'd agree with that, I think it's a tune composed by a Texan trumpeter in the Bossa/Samba idiom.

I suspect that's why it can be adapted to almost any style, gypsy, smooth, bebop, what you like.

**2bornot2bop** · 10-15-2017, 06:47 PM

OT since she's been mention, Ana Caram was a protege of Jobim, and her musical talent well worth investigating.

**grahambop** · 10-15-2017, 06:55 PM

Interesting to listen to Kenny Dorham's solo on his own tune. He hardly strays from the outlines of the melody in his solo, essentially just tweaks and embellishes it a bit.

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-15-2017, 08:48 PM

I think his reasoning was that Blue Bossa's melody didn't conform to the underlying syncopated rhythm of what he called Bossa or Samba. I never understood it.

It is true, though, that some melodies don't work well with specific rhythmic feels. But, Blue Bossa seems to work.

And, as another Brazilian told me, "there is no such thing as a Bossa rhythm. Every song is different.".
That strikes me as an overstatement, but there's a lot of truth in it.

**ragman1** · 10-15-2017, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I think his reasoning was that Blue Bossa's melody didn't conform to the underlying syncopated rhythm of what he called Bossa or Samba.

I think that's true. If you think Insensatez, Corcovado, Ipanema, or one of them, the rhythm of the melody does fit the background. Try it with Blue Bossa and it's not the same. It's subtle but it's there, it's coming out of a different mind.

But does it really matter? I doubt very much if KD was trying to write a Bossa tune like a Brazilian Bossa player, steeped in that culture, would do it. He was a hard bop player!

He wrote a really good tune that's stood the test of time. That's good enough, I reckon.

And, as another Brazilian told me, "there is no such thing as a Bossa rhythm. Every song is different.".
That strikes me as an overstatement, but there's a lot of truth in it.

I'd go with that too. Not that I'm any kind of expert but I've listened. The plucking rhythms change according to the lyrics and the feel of what the song's trying to say. They don't (usually) just play some kind of generic 'bossa' thing, it changes as they go along. Probably Western players don't feel safe with that so it's been standardised - and it's good for bands, of course.

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-15-2017, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Maybe I'll copy some of your ideas too...

That's good to hear because otherwise this video wouldn't have meaning.

**destinytot** · 10-16-2017, 04:59 AM

The merits of Ms Caram's stylings notwithstanding, and to quote Mr Brown (as I think he said it best), "Ain't nothin' goin' on but the rent."

**John A.** · 10-16-2017, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula

Thank you Ragman1!

You have point here. But the "problem" to me was that when I changed backing track Blue Bossa melody didn't work anymore. It's because this tempo in the video is quite high for smooth jazz style playing and too low for Blue Bossa melody.

So I decided to make melodic solos and try to search new lines for me outside the jazz guitar style I normally hear played on this song. It became maybe like other song.

Cheers

I had hard time finding the beat/time in your playing except in the octave section. At times it felt like you were pulling against the rhythm a lot. I have no problem with the style per se -- especially with a rhythm section that is less static, it can work well for Blue Bossa. But the soloing has to play with the groove a bit more, and the solo needs to be built on more clearly/strongly stated motivic ideas that are right on the beat at least some of the time; it would also help to punctuate it with chord hits. Otherwise it's a bit too much of a blur of notes. Obviously, you're a killer player, and this is just messing around a bit, so this is not a criticism of your playing; just a comment on what I think it would take to develop the concept.

John

**MikkoKarhula** · 10-16-2017, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by John A.

I had hard time finding the beat/time in your playing except in the octave section. At times it felt like you were pulling against the rhythm a lot. I have no problem with the style per se -- especially with a rhythm section that is less static, it can work well for Blue Bossa. But the soloing has to play with the groove a bit more, and the solo needs to be built on more clearly/strongly stated motivic ideas that are right on the beat at least some of the time; it would also help to punctuate it with chord hits. Otherwise it's a bit too much of a blur of notes. Obviously, you're a killer player, and this is just messing around a bit, so this is not a criticism of your playing; just a comment on what I think it would take to develop the concept.

John

Thank you John! You are in right track here. The thing is that I have played so many types of music in my live. Also have had strong 6 year period of gypsy jazz, then Balkan music but not so much actual jazz. Now if I think the different timings of these styles, it really varies a lot. My playing hasn't settled down to jazz timing. There is maybe too much different timings in my head and it's difficult to control.

Your comment opened this aspect to me and I'm very grateful for it, thank you!

Now the problem is that should I stay with one style and learn it as good as I can? When I found gypsy jazz for years ago I thought that I had found the best style in the world that has everything in it. For long time it felt so and I had nice gigs and things with playing gypsy jazz. It felt that I was in that technique and timing etc. what gypsy jazz is. But eventually this style proved that I can't bring all my ideas through it and some gypsy jazz manners became negative in my mind. Also understanding that playing only gypsy jazz won't give me many gigs or different jobs. Eventually I felt quite negatively to whole style. Happily I don't think so anymore and love that music in more distant way.
But this showed me that I'm not happy if I play only one style.

Now I'm searching but really don't have time enough to practice and adopt styles good enough.

Thanks!
Cheers, Mikko

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-17-2017, 02:17 PM

As I understood it, the argument about Blue Bossa not being a bossa because of the melody was relevant, supposedly, because of this: If the melody conflicts with the underlying rhythmic pattern, the groove will suffer.

Frankly, I don't hear a problem with Blue Bossa.

But, I have heard the problem in other situations. For example, there's a rhythmic vocabulary to Samba. If your solo ideas don't lay within it, it creates tension. It's jazz, so some tension can be a good thing, but, at some point, it's hard to comp Samba behind a soloist who is playing out of a different vocabulary.

I don't think you can take just any tune and play it as a Samba or Bossa or other so-called "Latin" style. If the melody conflicts with the clave/tamborim/chop, the groove can suffer.

I think my teacher could hear that problem on Blue Bossa. I can't, but I suspect it's a question of having grown up hearing the style.