Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes

**jasaco** · 02-08-2017, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by pants

Through Tapatalk there's a button that you select a photo/video locally on your phone. I believe it gets "hosted" at Vimeo, but I've never had to set anything up or go to
the site. I've posted a dozen or so videos like this previously with no issues. I'm assuming some kind of bug in Tapatalk or in how the forum interacts with Vimeo/Tapatalk.

Ah,ok. I don't know anything about Tapatalk...sorry...

**MarkRhodes** · 02-08-2017, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

Ah,ok. I don't know anything about Tapatalk...sorry...

Me neither, I'm afraid. I upload to YouTube and then post them here.

I sometimes see videos here that are not from YouTube. Perhaps the people who posted them can tell the rest of us how they did it.

**pants** · 02-08-2017, 03:39 PM

Well, the process is certainly not as easy peasy this way but here we go. I'll keep trying the native uploads as that was really simple, but this works as a backup.

**jasaco** · 02-08-2017, 10:08 PM

Here is the pedal steel version of Etude #1... (by the way, this is a faster-tempo version at 110 bpm, which replaces the slower version I posted yesterday).

**rlrhett** · 02-09-2017, 02:17 AM

Here is my Basics #5, warts and all. I just couldn't seem to get a clean take with the camera on.

I've created a playlist on Youtube for these exercises and watched all five in a row. I was surprised to see how much more challenging #5 is compared to #1. The increase in complexity and shear number of notes is subtle over five studies, but watching them back to back makes the differences more stark. That sure makes me feel better, because I struggled with this one. No one section was hard, I just couldn't seem to get through without making a mistake. On the plus side, picking up after a flub made me practice not loosing my place in the song. I had a LOT of practice with this one!

Also, I noticed that this study had a lot more scalar runs and a lot less chromaticism. It was interesting. On the one hand I liked it because it had a less "corny" sound, on the other I found that I missed the idiomatic phrases of the more "jazz" lines.

I am learning these things more or less rote without much analytic thought. I am trusting in Frank that it will sink in and become useable. However, I do note that I am not really feeling much better able to improvise over these changes. Perhaps that will come.

In any case, enough musings. Here is the video:

**TOMMO** · 02-09-2017, 05:00 AM

Jim - that was a joy to listen to - hope you keep them coming!

**TOMMO** · 02-09-2017, 09:15 AM

Always looking a bit ahead out of sheer curiosity, I had a peep into #2. Some challenging stretches all over the place, this one will not come easy....

**TOMMO** · 02-09-2017, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

I am learning these things more or less rote without much analytic thought. I am trusting in Frank that it will sink in and become useable. However, I do note that I am not really feeling much better able to improvise over these changes. Perhaps that will come.

Go back to those exercises when you have them memorized so you can play them without looking at the chart and then start to analyze the notes in regards of their relationship to the underlying (or implied) chords. You will learn a lot by that - at least I did (with choruses I have been working on for some time).

**jasaco** · 02-09-2017, 11:39 AM

Even though most of you haven't gotten to Etude #1 yet, I want to park an observation about it here for future reference. When playing the pedal steel version, it dawned on me that, at the start of the bridge, where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

D7: D F# A C

Bm7: B D F# A

So, D7 is the same as Bm7 (with the exception of the C note which would be a b9 in Bm7, and the B note which would be an 13 in D7 so, in general, D7 can be subbed for Bm7. Now, since, in this Etude, the Bm7 is already a 5m sub for the E7, this means that D7 can be played over E7. What happens when we do that? Well, in relation to E7, the tones of a D7 are:

D (b7) F# (9) A (11) B (5) C (+5)

So D7 gives you some inside and outside pitches over an E7. I'm going to spend a little time with BIAB today, making up lines using these D7 pitches over E7 and see if I can make music out of it. I'll let you know how it works out...

If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

Thanks,
Jim

**jasaco** · 02-09-2017, 12:49 PM

p.s. BTW, I just swapped out my pedal steel version of Etude 1 for a somewhat faster version (110 bpm), in case you want to check it out again.

**pants** · 02-09-2017, 01:24 PM

In the interest of catching up a bit, here's etude 1 at practice tempo of 80. Keeping it a bit slower still to facilitate a few bits I haven't fully worked out yet. Will likely try to bump the tempo up and repost in a few days.

**rahsaan** · 02-09-2017, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

...where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

D7: D F# A C

Bm7: B D F# A

and, in fact:

Bm9: B D F# A C
D13: D F# A C B

Although Bm7 is ii in A maj here, so it should be C#, and the triad DF#A would be extended to a maj 7th rather than dominant, and BDF#AC is Bmb9?

**jasaco** · 02-09-2017, 02:31 PM

You are correct. Thanks for catching that. I've edited my original post accordingly.

**TOMMO** · 02-09-2017, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

Thanks,
Jim

Probably lots of possible theoretical explanations. What comes to mind is that Bm7 is IIIm of G and D7 is V7 of G so they are related while E7(b9) could be seen as a secondary dominant sub for the Em in the key of G.

So if notes from D7 and E7 both work they have a "blues" relationship to the key of A, the next chord in the bridge.

When you're going for a blues sound all kinds of notes work that at first sight don't seem to make sense....

**jasaco** · 02-09-2017, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by TOMMO

What comes to mind is that Bm7 is IIIm of G and D7 is V7 of G so they are related while E7(b9) could be seen as a secondary dominant sub for the Em in the key of G.

Thanks for engaging in the commentary and discussion, Tommo. Personally, I don't see or hear us being in the key of G anywhere in this song. The main key, of course, is C major. Then the bridge is a cycle of III7 VI7 II7 V7 secondary dominants (except for the V7 which is normally dominant anyway). But, in my mind at least, that doesn't really constitute a key change, especially not at the point of the Bm7/E7 (one could argue that we're temporarily in A however). But instead of going to the A, it goes to A7, the next secondary dominant in the series, up a fourth. Rinse, repeat, around the horn till we land back at C.

I haven't yet had time to fool around with D7 arps over E7 but will get to it and report back...

Thanks,
jasaco

**TOMMO** · 02-09-2017, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

Thanks for engaging in the commentary and discussion, Tommo. Personally, I don't see or hear us being in the key of G anywhere in this song. The main key, of course, is C major. Then the bridge is a cycle of III7 VI7 II7 V7 secondary dominants (except for the V7 which is normally dominant anyway). But, in my mind at least, that doesn't really constitute a key change, especially not at the point of the Bm7/E7 (one could argue that we're temporarily in A however). But instead of going to the A, it goes to A7, the next secondary dominant in the series, up a fourth. Rinse, repeat, around the horn till we land back at C.

I haven't yet had time to fool around with D7 arps over E7 but will get to it and report back...

Thanks,
jasaco

Yes - you're right - we're not in the key of G - I was just pointing out (or trying to) some possible relationships there. "But instead of goung to the A, it goes to A7". That's right, but in blues, all chords are dom7 chords, regardless of key, so E7 and D7 are related to the key of A in blues....

**jasaco** · 02-09-2017, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by TOMMO

...in blues, all chords are dom7 chords, regardless of key, so E7 and D7 are related to the key of A in blues....

OK, yes, I see your point…

**rlrhett** · 02-09-2017, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

Even though most of you haven't gotten to Etude #1 yet, I want to park an observation about it here for future reference. When playing the pedal steel version, it dawned on me that, at the start of the bridge, where the chords in the 1st bar are Bm7 / E7, the melody calls for a reverse D7 triad arpeggio (A F# D) over the Bm7. Now, while I was aware that Bm7 contains the same notes as D6, I'd never made the connection between Bm7 and D7 until then:

D7: D F# A C

Bm7: B D F# A

So, D7 is the same as Bm7 (with the exception of the C note which would be a b9 in Bm7, and the B note which would be an 13 in D7 so, in general, D7 can be subbed for Bm7. Now, since, in this Etude, the Bm7 is already a 5m sub for the E7, this means that D7 can be played over E7. What happens when we do that? Well, in relation to E7, the tones of a D7 are:

D (b7) F# (9) A (11) B (5) C (+5)

So D7 gives you some inside and outside pitches over an E7. I'm going to spend a little time with BIAB today, making up lines using these D7 pitches over E7 and see if I can make music out of it. I'll let you know how it works out...

If anyone else has any comments or observations about this point, or another helpful way to think of it, or rule of thumb, or whatever, I'd be interested to hear (er, 'read') it.

Thanks,
Jim

FWIW, I understand that it is fairly common to use the IVmaj7 arpeggio over a ii-V. It provides you with the extensions over someone comping on a plain vanilla ii-V. Likewise, using the VIbmaj7 works over an altered ii-V because it highlights all those altered tones. It works over a iidim-V7alt, for e.g.

Knowing that theory doesn't mean I can use it! Still, I think that is easily one way to look at it. You have a B-7 which can be substituted for or mixed in with a E7. As others have said, that briefly implies a A^. Playing a Dmaj7 (or even D7) gives you the extensions to B-7 or E7. Sounds nice.

Of course, in music there are many ways to look at the same thing. But this IV or VIb maj 7 concept over a ii-V-I helps keep you thinking just in maj7 arpeggios, which can simplify playing a bit. I doesn't hurt that it sounds pretty hip as well.

**MarkRhodes** · 02-09-2017, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

FWIW, I understand that it is fairly common to use the IVmaj7 arpeggio over a ii-V. It provides you with the extensions over someone comping on a plain vanilla ii-V. Likewise, using the VIbmaj7 works over an altered ii-V because it highlights all those altered tones. It works over a iidim-V7alt, for e.g.

So, for example, over D- and G7 (a ii- V7 in C) one could use the F Maj 7 arp (IV chord). Right?
And over Dm7b5 and G7alt (-a minor ii-V) one could play an Ab Maj 7 arp (bVI maj 7). Right?

**TOMMO** · 02-10-2017, 10:13 AM

So here's my version of Basics 3 - shaky rhythm. I still keep an eye on the chart and that takes away some concentration...

**rlrhett** · 02-10-2017, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

So, for example, over D- and G7 (a ii- V7 in C) one could use the F Maj 7 arp (IV chord). Right?
And over Dm7b5 and G7alt (-a minor ii-V) one could play an Ab Maj 7 arp (bVI maj 7). Right?

Yes, exactly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**MarkRhodes** · 02-10-2017, 10:34 AM

TrueFire is having a sale this weekend: buy-one-get-one-free. (It's related to Valentine's Day, so they're selling things in pairs, or as couples.) So I finally pulled the trigger on Frank's "Modern Guitar Method." 4.5 GB of material. It's not specifically jazz instruction but 'how to play guitar' instruction. Much of it is basic but it is thorough and a good way to fill in the gaps in one's knowledge.

Frank talks more about picking here than anywhere else I have seen. He doesn't have any fancy / special grip or approach to picking. (He's of the "whatever's comfortable" school.) But he does recommend doing some exercises with all downstrokes. (He has described his own picking as "mostly down".) And he thinks melodies sound better this way. So this morning I played the 5 "basics" with all downstrokes. Can't say it changed my life but it is a more even sound.

In case anyone here is interested in this, now's the time to pick it up. (Make sure the other thing you pick--to get the discount--is of nearly the same price.)

Modern Method for Guitar - Frank Vignola - TrueFire

**pants** · 02-10-2017, 01:46 PM

Etude 1, up to 100 bpm, still sloppy.

**jasaco** · 02-10-2017, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

...he does recommend doing some exercises with all downstrokes. (He has described his own picking as "mostly down".) And he thinks melodies sound better this way. So this morning I played the 5 "basics" with all downstrokes. Can't say it changed my life but it is a more even sound.

I've heard that mostly (or all) down is the Gypsy jazz style and they certainly can fly at fast tempos. I just don't really understand how that can be faster than alternate or economy picking, when you have to bring your pick back up to the topside of every string before you can hit it again. Can you enlighten me on that, Mark?

**MarkRhodes** · 02-10-2017, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by jasaco

I've heard that mostly (or all) down is the Gypsy jazz style and they certainly can fly at fast tempos. I just don't really understand how that can be faster than alternate or economy picking, when you have to bring your pick back up to the topside of every string before you can hit it again. Can you enlighten me on that, Mark?

O, Frank doesn't say it is faster. Or as fast. He likes that sound better. Also, as he has said a few times, most melodies in standards are not that fast. (Lots of quarter notes in melodies, sometimes half-notes and hole-notes too.) So using mostly downstrokes for melodies (-unless they're bebop heads) isn't a problem of speed but of habit.

Christian77 here talks about using lots and lots of downstrokes. Charlie Christian played mostly downstrokes. Joe Pass recommended using a downstroke whenever changing to another string because that gives lines more punch. It also allows you to concentrate on tone and fingering when learning a new exercise / scale / pattern / melody. The right hand is always the same. Tends to make players slow down too, which is a boon to learning! ;o)