bebop language study group ?

[fasstrack]

Yeah I know what you mean actually - I'm a slow info processor as well, always struggled to keep up in the class. I've got a lot out of the material in my own practice room.

I got the impression a lot of the guys had worked on the DVD before going to the class. This was mid noughties....

I do like that the material is practiced at tempo. Slow practice is great, but sometimes it's good to just play things at tempo. I just need a lot of practice getting used to running things like that... but maybe it sinks in deeper (that's what I tell myself haha)



Yes, the vocal class is always cool - so different from the impov and harmony classes, and a shame that more instrumentalists don't hang around for that.

He always said 'get out of it what you can'.

He has to deal with people around all the time---and all that infers...

[MarkRhodes]

Stuff like that is often a marketing gimmick that the publishers come up with.

I think that's true. I also think it can help those who want TrueFire to put out a video of them: "50 Licks" is a good way to organize a proposal. (There are also some 30-Lick courses, which are usually aimed at beginners. Not necessarily beginning players but people new to a certain style. Fareed Haque's "30 Beginner Jazz Guitar Licks You MUST Know" is a nice batch of lessons, though if you're not a beginner, you probably already know many of them.)

You know what you're getting if you order a "50 Licks" course. That's not a bad thing.

[MarkRhodes]

Roni's book is excellent and one of the few that I work with regularly. It's based on Barry's teachings and includes a number of topics that you'll encounter in BH's materials - the rules for adding half-steps to scales, enclosures (surrounding notes), the sixth diminished scales in single-note form etc.

I have Roni's "Talk Guitar" book. Unfortunately, the CD was broken during shipping. I emailed Roni and he allowed me to download the sound files from a Dropbox account. So I have them but I've never worked with them. Maybe I'll find the flash drive they're on and transfer them to a CD. (I don't like to have the computer on when practicing--too distracting.)

Maybe I should work with this for awhile before ordering the DVD.

By the way, does anyone know why Roni named the book that, "Talk Guitar"? It makes no sense to me and I keep thinking I'm missing an obvious reference.

[PMB]

Hey I just want to clarify something:

The 5-4-3-2 isn't a major component of the Barry Harris system; it's almost like an aside. Like someone above said (I think David?), he says they're just little things to "get you out of trouble." If you bought the dvds just for the 5-4-3-2 stuff you'd be disappointed as there's very little beyond what was already discussed here. I DO whole-heartedly recommend the DVDs though, as the other stuff is all just as good.

Another thing Barry talks about in terms of 'getting out of trouble' is the descending chromatic major scale. It's basically a major scale with all the added passing tones. The important distinction between his version and a simple descending chromatic that you is double back to a scale tone on a higher degree wherever a semitone naturally occurs in the major scale.

For example, in F major the semitone occurs between F & E and then between Bb & A. So the descending chromatic F major scale would look like this:

F-(G)-E-Eb-D-Db-C-B-Bb-(C)-A-Ab-G-Gb-F.

Here it is as an extended possible ii-V-I line from various degrees of the scale:

[christianm77]

Sorry to post this again, but it might be relevant... My thoughts on the rhythmic structure of bop lines being related to the clave. What do you think?

[MarkRhodes]

Another thing Barry talks about in terms of 'getting out of trouble' is the descending chromatic major scale. It's basically a major scale with all the added passing tones. The important distinction between his version and a simple descending chromatic that you is double back to a scale tone on a higher degree wherever a semitone naturally occurs in the major scale.

I did not know this. Thanks!

[Boston Joe]

Sorry to post this again, but it might be relevant... My thoughts on the rhythmic structure of bop lines being related to the clave. What do you think?

Very interesting. I think you made your case convincingly.

[MarkRhodes]

Well, as it happens, I got a little loot for my birthday and ordered the Barry Harris Workshop DVD (-the first one) from Aebersold. They've already shipped it!

If I'm not a jazz god by Christmas, you're all in trouble! ;o) Kidding, of course. Looking forward to getting a handle on what Barry teaches. I've learned bits and pieces but I can't say I have a feel for incorporating it in my practice and performances. Time to plunge into the deep.

[christianm77]

Well, as it happens, I got a little loot for my birthday and ordered the Barry Harris Workshop DVD (-the first one) from Aebersold. They've already shipped it!

If I'm not a jazz god by Christmas, you're all in trouble! ;o) Kidding, of course. Looking forward to getting a handle on what Barry teaches. I've learned bits and pieces but I can't say I have a feel for incorporating it in my practice and performances. Time to plunge into the deep.

Look forward to hearing about it.

[joe2758]

Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...

[David B]

Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...

Hi Joe,
You've inspired me to do a video on Indiana a la Barry this weekend. It's been a long time since I played in front of a camera. I'll post it here.

[joe2758]

Thanks David!!!

[MarkRhodes]

Mark- did you check out the dvd yet? You interested in a study-group thread? Anyone else? I'm working on the basic scale outline for Indiana. I'm very used to slow-medium tempos, so this has been a good one to build up some speed. Trying to play through the tune with the scale outline at 187 bpm with some of the 5-4-3-2 phrases thrown in at different places along the way. Next I'll do the same with the various patterns of chromatics and arps etc...

The DVD hasn't arrived yet. Should be here tomorrow (Thursday, 13 October.) Tracking info hasn't been updated since 3 A.M. Sunday, though. The hurricane disrupted normal service somewhere along the way...

I would be interested in a study-group, yes. Lots of people have been studying Barry's approach for a long time now and could help those of us newer to it to get off on the right foot. Might inspire a few others to jump in too.

It would be useful to have a single thread for a lot of Barry Harris info to be gathered.

[MarkRhodes]

Hi Joe,
You've inspired me to do a video on Indiana a la Barry this weekend. It's been a long time since I played in front of a camera. I'll post it here.

Great, David, I look forward to that.

And to everyone here, David B is a great spirit with a generous heart and we are blessed to have him among us!

[edh]

Is this Alan Kingstone's book/cd?

[David B]

Just collating in one post here the various materials available from Barry Harris and his students:

Barry Harris 4DVD/book set (1): The Barry Harris Workshop Video ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops
Barry Harris 4DVD/book set (2): The Barry Harris Workshop Video Part 2 ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

'The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar' by Alan Kingstone: The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar ? Howard Rees' Jazz Workshops

'Talk Jazz Guitar' by Roni Ben-Hur: Roni Ben-Hur - Talk Jazz: Guitar

'Chordability' DVD by Roni Ben-Hur: Roni Ben-Hur - Chordability

Pasquale Grasso's four video lessons at www.mymusicmasterclass.com : https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/a...squale-grasso/

Roni Ben-Hur's two 'Anatomy of a Tune' video lessons at Mike's Master Classes:
'How High the Moon' : Anatomy of a Tune - Be-bop Style | Lesson by Roni Ben-Hur | Mike's Master Classes
'Confirmation' : Confirmation | Lesson by Roni Ben-Hur | Mike's Master Classes

[joe2758]

I started a Barry Harris thread: Official Barry Harris Thread

[Yonatan]

By the way, does anyone know why Roni named the book that, "Talk Guitar"? It makes no sense to me and I keep thinking I'm missing an obvious reference.

I know this is an old post (hope you haven't been losing sleep over this question!), but I did come across this answer, so for what it's worth:

"RONI BEN-HUR: If you play Jazz right, you talk Jazz. The book is called Talk Jazz because it deals directly with the language and the vocabulary of the Jazz world. It comes to help students get acquainted with the vocabulary, with specific ways of playing things that sound in the Jazz idiom, just theoretical concept but actual musical sentences." (refer to Tomajazz – Roni Ben-Hur: Expanding the tradition, by Sergio Cabanillas and Arturo Mora)

[buduranus2]

I spent a year trying to improvise using certain lines I learned from the David Baker books, only to realise I didn't really like them! I eventually turned them into something I did like. That said, in the early days, there is still much to be learned from analysing what makes the old cliches tick.

I've been slogging my way through David Baker's How to Play Bebop vol. 2 and agree that there are very few licks, phrases and turnarounds that I like well enough to memorize. That said, I've benefited quite a bit from the book in terms of stretching my ear trying to understand how a lot of the examples relate to the underlying cadences. Most times they still don't make sense to me, but I'm better for the effort. Occasionally I'll change one note in an example and all of a sudden it sounds better and makes more sense. So while I haven't really gotten that much from the book to use directly, I've noticed that applying various modes of melodic and harmonic minor has become more intuitive for me, which has gotten me closer to what I set out to learn in the first place.

[Irez87]

I've only started posting again recently, but I feel like I've picked up where I've left off 4 years ago...

Many of these posts miss something vital that Barry is doing

He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear


I really like what fasstrack said about melody.

And listen to what Chris77 said about learning bebop heads--by ear.

The theory is important, yes.

But you have to hear the language to really use it in your own lines in a convincing manner. That means hearing the articulations, hearing the dynamics, and hearing all the rests that punctuate the lines (especially the rests).

So sing, hum, whistle. Do something to get the lines out without your instrument first. Then go back to your axe. I think that you'll realize huge concepts that you'd never gleam just by focusing on the mechanics of your instrument alone.

[christianm77]

I've only started posting again recently, but I feel like I've picked up where I've left off 4 years ago...

Many of these posts miss something vital that Barry is doing

He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear


I really like what fasstrack said about melody.

And listen to what Chris77 said about learning bebop heads--by ear.

The theory is important, yes.

But you have to hear the language to really use it in your own lines in a convincing manner. That means hearing the articulations, hearing the dynamics, and hearing all the rests that punctuate the lines (especially the rests).

So sing, hum, whistle. Do something to get the lines out without your instrument first. Then go back to your axe. I think that you'll realize huge concepts that you'd never gleam just by focusing on the mechanics of your instrument alone.

Correct imo

90% of the bop language comes from the rhythmic phrases. (That itself is closely related to speech, especially the vernacular of the time, people and place.) That is also the key thing that differentiates it from the swing music that came before.

The melody is the second thing. The harmony is often more of afterthought than you’d think. But melody is a lot easier when you know what the rhythm is. And the harmonic side can be simplified down to allow the rhythm and melody to be as free and creative as possible. Bop has more in common with modal jazz than it might at first appear.

Dizzy put it this way - ‘find a rhythm and hang some notes on it’

Because we are not living in NYC in the 1950s immersion in the recorded music is terribly important. Aside from that I am currently working on a teaching resource (for my postgrad) which comes up with rhythmic phrases that I will share with the forum for C&C if i can work a good way of putting it online.

[princeplanet]

Bebop, I agree, is a very rhythmic language, it's angular, asymmetrical, unpredictable and seemingly random to the uninitiated. If you wanna learn that language then a lot of time must be spent grokking that aspect.

But here's the thing, I personally feel that when people say they want to investigate Jazz language and vocab and they get directed to Bebop, I reckon they're more interested in the melodic/harmonic DNA of the lines than they are in the rhythmic aspect.

Let's face it, straight ahead or Hard Bop is more popular these days (well, since 1955 really!) than strict Bebop, no one really plays strict Bebop and very few people actually like it. People would rather play and listen to Hard Bop styled lines, or Post Bop, Modal and later styles. all of which feature much less irregular rhythms. For example, compare Charlie Parker to Jackie Maclean from the late 50's onwards. He's playing simplified versions of Bird lines in longer flowing lines and it sounds cool, any Jackie Mac fan out there will get where I'm coming from.

This is not to say it's a progression, or it's "better", it's just easier to dig, tap your foot to, groove along with etc. I'd also wager that most on this forum will confess that they find it more enjoyable to listen to Pat Martino playing long streams of 8th notes than to listen to the stop/start, choppy phrasing from a bop stalwart like Tal Farlow.

Just trying to restore some balance to this discussion, I simply can't let the assertion that "Rhythm is everything" go unchallenged...

[pcsanwald]

are the barry harris DVDs available for purchase where you can download them digitally? doesn't seem like it but maybe I'm missing something.

[Petimar]

are the barry harris DVDs available for purchase where you can download them digitally? doesn't seem like it but maybe I'm missing something.

Dont think they are.

[Tal_175]

He's singing his lines because they've been internalized in his hands AND (most importantly) his ear

A lot of the times when pianists (or bassists) are groaning they are not really singing their lines. If you listen to the noises you'll agree If they are signing their lines than they are completely tone-deaf. But they aren't of course. The noises may follow the melodic curve but they are not hitting the pitches. Most of the time they aren't even trying to sing the right pitches.
There are some theories as to why some players grunt and groan. Most likely explanation is that it's a rhythmic concentration thing. It could also be related to the physicalities of the demands of playing the instrument at challenging tempos (like athletes do) etc.
There are players who (sometimes) sing their lines. It could be practice habits but some of them I think do in the hopes of being taken more seriously as musicians (ie think 20 year old jazz students in jam sessions). But groaning is different and of course that's not why Keith Jarrett and other masters groan.
It's very important I think to sing what you play in the practice room. I benefit enormously from that. But to do that when people are listening to you play can look phony. Although groaning is different I have to say it still annoys me just as much as when Maria Sharapova does it Not a show stopper though.