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Thank you David, your 2 cents are a whole dollar to me...ha! Seriously you had some
good things to say and I'm glad I read your post. Holdsworth is the legato-horn line solo
extraordinaire, and I'm tempted to read from his books and sheet music, but I have been
told in so many words that transcribing or learning one of Holdsworth's choruses, maybe a
verse or two is better than learning all the songs in his book, or at least that's my
understanding of what I've been told. That's my Confederate dollar!
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04-19-2016 01:06 PM
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To phrase like a horn we guitarists have to use our breath like horn so try to sing or in my case mumble along with what your playing when you turn blue in the face stop playing breath and repeat. I find the breathing of the phrases to be crucial to sound more horn like in my phrasing.
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04-19-2016, 02:00 PM #228dortmundjazzguitar Guest
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Well you know, Holdsworth's inspirational sources were horn players, and it was his quest to find his own way around guitaristic approaches that led him to his own style. What horn players do you like, by the way? That can help in recommending a direction. Paul Desmond is going to give you a different set of challenges than, say Eric Dolphy.
Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
A lot of people will tell you that transcribing another guitarist's music will help you get to their sound. There's a lot to be said for that. But there's also an argument that says the things that gave them THEIR sound, especially if it was horn players, can be even more informative.
Great advice I heard from a very respected guitar teacher: Avoid transcribing guitar players; they can be stuck in an approach that is instrument-centric. Learn from other musical sources (your instincts about horn are good) and don't play any of what you take from their playing until you can understand, permute and re-create an original phrase of your own.
It's the more difficult path, but that challenge, once freed from the convenience of instrumental form, can give you something much more diverse, re-interpretive and individual. In the long run, you'll stand a better chance of finding a sound that not only will be distinctive, but is easier for you to get around yourself. There's nothing like your own approach and tendencies to make the music convincing.
One minority opinion.
David
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Learn to phrase like a jazz guitar player first.
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This little progression is elementary perhaps for a lot of you, but I don't g-r-o-o-v-e real well (ha ha)
So I'm starting with the blues and I want to take this progression through 3 phases:
First, establish the groove/get the rhythm right...
Second, lay down a good blues solo
Third, pour on something jazzy for the I-IV-V
I don't see any reason why I can't do all of this on the Red House tune.
Autumn Leaves was getting old because it seems everybody has found
a cool comfortable way to play the tune but me and I was getting jammed
up sometimes so I'm going to go back and master the rhythm tonight
then attack the tune with the bluesy and jazzy solos in the morning.
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Ah, yes. B7: the saddest of all "keys"....
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
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Matt, since you are a guitar teacher extraordinaire, riddle me this-
What is the heaviest key of them all, something you would play
if you wanted some gravity in your jazz or a weighty sound in metal?
E minor gives the ultimate crunch in standard tuning but I like to
tune down a whole step for metal---I've tried down tuning for jazz
but I don't like it: doesn't sound jazzy down there to me but it
may be darker, which I guess could help if you're playing in minor
or diminished keys. And by heavy I mean Black Sabbath not Korn
or Slipknot. I just want to know what to tune my Epiphone to:
I use it for rock, metal and blues and I play Ashley (my gracious
Gretsch named after a girl and a guy...yeah, like that) just for
jazz and blues: I can't stay away from Ashley long or I go through
withdrawal---Lastly, do you recommend any alternate tuning(s) for
jazz? There may be a lot of them I know, but drop D and one whole
step down ain't doing me no good when I'za boppin'...
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I know I'm not the jazz guitarist-musician Wes was, but that doesn't mean I can't become a good jazz guitarist musician in my own time. Language has always been my gift but I've put most all my books along with my own writing away, and I have no conflicting feelings; it's like I know I'm doing the right thing immersing myself in jazz--I take breaks but always return to the source. I bought Vol. 1 of the Jazz Guitar Gazette and since Wes Montgomery was the study of the first issue, I've been listening to this to get the influence, the rhythm and the feel in my head and hands:
I think once I get the basic jazz rhythms down and sing enough melodies the "shred" thing will go away and I'll be able to play fast like a real jazz player: in the event that too much time has passed and I can't stop simply playing scales fast I'm ditching the pick and sticking with my thumb. Never been one for fingerpicking but I love the sound of good legato...Have a good day!
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
No need to abandon the "shred". I mean, playing prestissimo has been popular in music practically forever. The difference is, the great majority of shredders suck. Their time sucks, their note choice sucks, they are oblivious to the underlying harmony, etc, etc. Just focus on being a better musician. If that shred feeling is in your soul, go for it. Just make sure you're hitting the right notes.
Once you get there, you can call it, "burning through the changes"!!!
Speaking of shredding, did you get a chance to check out the picking lesson and demos I sent you? I know you mentioned you wanted to clean up your speed picking, if you put a little effort into what I sent you, you will see dramatic results. Let me know what you think when you've worked on it for a bit.
Take care!!!
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Yeah I imagine I will always play fast but one thing I'm learning now is to Listen,
not just to music in general but to the rhythm I'm playing over. I believe what you
said about most shredders--hell, I even think some shredders who play very clean
and accurately suck, when it comes to making good sounding music. Thanks for
the videos--the best thing about them is they got me comparing my picking with
other players to find out what works best...I just finished watching some Brian
Setzer and I noted that he and I alternate pick similarly, I use a little more wrist
whereas with him there's more movement from the arm, but I might play a little
differently if I was standing up. Goal #1: Master Autumn Leaves backing track
Goal #2: Learn as much of Wes Montgomery's Autumn Leaves as possible. I'll
just stick with those two right now but I'll surely get some picking practice in too.
Thanks much! Roscoe
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Its ts important to note in that tutorial that I specifically do not instruct how to hold a pick, grip, etc. There are simply too many great pickers who do it differently. What I tried to do was find what the best have in common. The music will always tell you what's "right and wrong". According to most people, I hold the pick "wrong", but I can play 16ths at 200bpm cleanly, so...
Thats the reason I include the demo videos, you can take whatever you like as far as how I hold it, etc. but the bottom line is, if you practice that excercise, you will clean up your technique immediately.
Good luck!!!
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I apologize, but I don't right off know where the video with the technique, we'll call it "the bottom line" exercise is...
I have no idea how many beats per minute I can play any given note but I know I write more now than I did when I was a writer and if I don't get to playing I'm not going to get any better...no offense to you, I just need to manage my time better--thanks!
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I've never really ever TRIED to sound like a horn player, but I mainly have listened to them so I think the phrasing is inside here somewhere. First your lines have to be horn like. Not guitaristic. Outlining chords, hairpin harmonic turns. But a lot of legato, hammers and pull offs. I don't think of Holdsworth as sounding particularly hornlike. Too legato and his lines aren't hornlike at all. He sounds more violin to me. Or guitar, of course.
Not economy, alternate or definitely not sweep. I don't think those have much to do with it besides articulating strong/ weak beats. Dynamics. Phrasing. Slurs. Swing. Groove.
All the best,
www.henryrobinett.com
Check out my latest CD on iTunes.
I Have Known Mountains by Henry Robinett
https://itun.es/us/pi6C_
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That sounds like it might work: I've seen tutorials where they advise singing what you play: not all that easy for me, but I think with some practice I'll have it down.
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I'm thinking of the little things that Pat Metheny does, like pre-bends, and lots of sliding in and out of notes, in addition to slurs.
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How about studying tunes with simple forms where a guitar player and and horn player alternate. Kenny Burrell and Stanley Turrentine - Chitlins Con Carne . I love Kenny Burrell and study his playing but the line Stanley Turrentine plays on sax beginning at about 3:08 to 3:30 is just sublime - when transcribed to guitar it is a great basis for a solo concept . Its a useful way to compare approaches to the same tune
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My 2 cents on the subject...
Horns are what drew me to jazz in the first place. They play with the "fire" I love in music. Recently, I've enjoyed guitar players more and more.
I teach beginner trumpet, sax, etc. and while I can't play them great, I understand the mechanics pretty well... Now, we all love the sax. It is a really well thought out instrument, as a result, achieving the sheets of sound style is much easier. But they can't even play a major chord, so take that saxers...
Now, I would venture to say that guitarists have a lot more in common with trumpet players, than sax players. We have some of the same physical hurdles we need to negotiate. So. I would encourage folks to listen to some trumpeters for inspiration as to how to burn through changes.
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Thank you so much for this Kenny Burrell slash sax clip: I haven't done much today but listen so tonight and tomorrow I'll try to learn it by ear.
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No problem, I sent two emails. The first has a few minute video where I go through the excercise. The body of the email contains some instructions, thoughts, etc. The second email contains two short (20 second) demo videos of the upper limits of the two picking "families" (odd numbers and even numbers). Even if you can get close to the upper limits (170 for odd, 200 for even), lets say 144 for odds, and 160 for even, cleanly. You probably have all the chops you need and it's time to start focusing elsewhere. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
btw the excercise focuses entirely on overcoming "outside picking", which is what most folks who say they can't pick fast, are really stumbling over. Once you learn how to negotiate that, and understand why and when you run into this issue, your technique improves substantially. You'll also know when you can break out those 200 bpm lines, and when you will likely fall on your face.
Lastly, I recommend searching this forum for a thread entitled, one way to hold a pick. Start around page 9. There are some great bits of wisdom in that thread from some of the regulars around here. In particular, variations on the classic "4 finger excercise", doing that paired with the 3nps excercise I detail will be the two best bang for the buck picking excercises you'll find. In one year, all your picking issues will disappear.
best wishes,
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Yes vintageglove that is the missing word "fire".
Now that I am playing jazz I want to not be like a horn player but I want to have that "fire" like early Benson, early Grant Green, early Kenny Burrell and most like Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown, Art Blakey and early Herbie Hancock.
I saw the Phillip Morris big band in the early 80's. All these old dudes Harry Sweet Eddison, Herb Ellis etc. They wheeled them in and they then ripped the place to pieces, man it was so loud I remember dripping in perspiration it was so exciting.Last edited by gggomez; 04-21-2016 at 09:39 PM.
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in one year? That's not a long time for what we're talking about, but...
By April of next year I want to make a picking video where I play
128th notes at 400 bpm...standing on my head and using my teeth!
Hold your breath for that one...thanks to you my friend I have instructions
on how to meet my goal...
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
On a serious note, it's great to see you realize a year is a short time for working on something. People who look for improvements in two weeks are bound to get frustrated and give up.
For someone like you who can already pick fast, it will provide amazing results. I promise, just give it a try.
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Okay Charles, I owe you an apology...I remember looking at a Trey Grady video you may or may not have sent but I may not have opened the one you're talking about...I'm crazy sometimes and I'm still listening to Miles so if you can please send the video or videos you want me to see so I can get to working on them tonight. Like I said, lazy day. Id appreciate Charles and sorry for the trouble. -Roscoe
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Sending in five, take care.
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