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StanG, thanks for the improv. approval: it gives me confidence but I am still uncertain because when I listen to 'good' jazz guitar playing I hear the guitarist hit all the 'right' notes, but that's just to my ear. I'm not afraid to hit a wrong note because I know that is inevitable, I just don't want to Program myself to hit wrong notes. Let me give you an example of programming, just to illustrate: when I played rock and metal I wanted to play fast, no, f-a-s-t...so I tried to play everything I learned and almost everything I knew at warp speed. I was working with a teacher at one point who was also into metal and I became focused on particular techniques, riffs, scales, etc. and I ended up sounding a lot like, hmm, Slayer. Okay those guys are super hardcore...I've seen them in concert and they don't disappoint, I listen to their albums and back when I had my Jackson and Marshall I could do a pretty good imitation. No, I'm not as good at playing their style as they are of course, but here's my point: After hours and hours and hours of practice I programmed myself to play really heavy riffs, fast, erratic solos and minor/diminished melodies. Excellent, right? When I cleaned my tone up to play jazz I found out I needed to clean my playing up too. When it comes to guitars, I favor comfort and play-ability above all else---my philosophy is simple: I don't care how good it sounds, if I can't play it I need something different. That's one reason I ended up with my Gretsch: after a 13 year lay off practicing on the Jackson was very awkward but a C.J. Martin Acoustic suited me fine. I traded the Jackson for the Gretsch and started trying to learn blues and jazz and I'm actually listening to good advice now: play the phrase/motif/scale/progression slow first, get the sound in your head and the notes under fingers and play it clean over and over until you can burn. If I may borrow from different genres, Philip Anselmo of Pantera said that Dimebag Darrel brought a "different kind of heavy tone" *(to metal). I'm listening for a different type of good jazz tone...Albert King called Stevie Ray "a picker's picker" but Stevie sounded nothing like shredders of the day, he was a different kind of fast guitar player and hard as that is to achieve that's the key, the sound and technique that are both different, and good. I've gone on too long, my apologies, I just get something on my mind and...
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04-13-2016 05:31 PM
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Weird title huh? I heard a guitarist who was giving a demonstration say in order to pick fast you need to hold the pick lightly and pick lightly...tell that to Stevie Ray Vaughan...Ha! If I was a blues cat I'd go with Stevie's aggressive/strat-handling style any day, but since I'm interested in playing with jazz cat class and style I need to be fluid alternate picking scales, phrases and arpeggios. I've been studying the arps to Autumn Leaves and I want to play them to suit the song but so far as my own music is concerned I want to mix legato and 3 note per string scales with alternate picked/string skipped arpeggios instead of sweeping all the time to give my tunes a memorable texture. You take your shredders, the good ones like McLaughlin and DiMeola, they can burn like nobody's business but their rhythms and solos have melody and texture, and I think that comes from years of practice and playing. I can alternate pick and sweep pick fairly fast but I at times lack consistency, meaning I'm "jagged" and not fluid. So I look for ways to improve my picking style because if you're not getting better then...you're not getting better...and why not? So I can't hold on lightly and pick lightly or the pick falls from my fingers, I can pick hard as hell and fast but my tone is not jazzy when I do that, I don't think I'm looking for a trick, maybe a new perspective, process or program...fast and smooth, any ideas? P.S. I play a Gretsch Electromatic but I have a Line 6 amp and while I like it for different types of music it only gets so jazzy, and I don't have space for pedals.
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Don't bother. It won't work that way.
Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
I'm only half joking.
It may be semantics, but you really should have musical idea, haunting melody, or chord sequence, then think about the melodic and harmonic devices, both separately and together with particular sound, before trying to find technical ways to execute. "I want to play MM based lines by alternate picking arpeggios combined with 3 NPS per string scales ... " can not produce quality music, IMO.
If I remember correctly, Reg advocates digging in, i.e. not choking the pick, combined with holding it rather loose and lightly. Originally Posted by joe2758
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Vladan and Joe... thank you for your opinions. When I create music in jazz, or write a jazz tune rather, I usually start with a kinky chord progression then improvise as I would if the progression was playing. I hold the pick at an angle and pick hard and fast when I need to, though I change my grip on the pick slightly to play pinch harmonics. I don't play p.h.'s that much in jazz---I mean I can do it, but nothing like when I'm playing metal: I make my Gretsch squeal like a pig then...so to speak. On a neater note I still play the blues because I love bending notes and shaking the hell out of them (as opposed to a more trill like jazz vibrato, which is actually harder to execute i.M.O.) Don't mistake me though: the more I listen to and play jazz the more I love it and while I used to think I would only like jazz guitar I've now found that piano is cool and the horns are inspiring. Take care!
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Yeah, that'll happen. When you play at high volumes with a lot of gain, there's a lot of compression that you get from the amp that tends to smooth everything out. Very light touches on the strings make big sounds. Clean, uncompressed sounds are a lot less forgiving. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
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There are a million questions when undertaking to learn Jazz. I got a feeling you're gonna ask this forum to answer every single one of them, one question at at time. People are so nice here, that they probably will humour you every time. But I'm gonna be Bad Cop again- find a teacher!!!!!! Even on Skype. Six months of your questions will be answered in an hour.
Life is short, and you seem in a hurry, so.....
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Nate, I no longer have a teacher and because of an injury I can't sit up for very long (I play and practice in my bed that inclines and declines like hospital bed so I can lay back and take breaks when I need to, every 15 mins or so.) I'm an amputee and get around in a wheelchair but I have push up for a min. or a little less ever 15 to keep from getting pressure sores on my bottom (I have had multiple major surgeries on my posterior.) SORRY FOR ALL THE PERSONAL INFO just letting you know why I don't have a teacher. I wanted to get a masters certificate from Berklee online and at one time it would have been possible but right now my family doesn't have the money for it, though my father does give me enough money to buy books and resources every week, it's just not nearly enough to save to go to Berklee online. I'm not the first guitarist and won't be the last to make it without a private instructor, but a good one does help.
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That's correct yaclaus and I don't know how to use Skype or anyone who uses it furthermore even if I did Skype all the teachers I've known expect payment and as I've explained in another thread I have the money to study jazz the way I am now but not enough for a private teacher or school...so I come to a jazz forum for assistance and you have a problem with that because, uh, it inconveniences you? Offends you? You would do us all a favor if you'd get off my back, I'm not hurting anybody and I'm not breaking the rules. Roscoe
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perfectly understandable why you don't have a teacher. I only said that because if the advice was coming from your teacher, then I wouldn't want to countermand that. But if you had just gotten the impression that you had to pick light to play jazz (and there are people who do have a light touch) but if you thought that was the only way to go about it, I just wanted to say...that ain't necessarily so.
Jack Petersen was who I studied with at North Texas, and whenever Jack would talk about these sort of subjects, he would naturally show us how he did it, but he always pointed out that his way was just one of many and he would talk about some of the other ways of thinking about it, too.
when it comes to picks and picking, Jack believed in "more material, more force, more sound" so he said he used a heavy pick, with a virtual death grip, and played hard on heavy strings. That's pretty much how I always did it, too. But I've had good friends that used circular picking, played lighter strings, used medium picks...pretty much everything
so there are lots of ways to go about picking. Sometimes its good to try something new, but there's no single right way
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I think a light touch probably works pretty well in metal since you're playing with so much gain/distortion. Little touches can make a big noise if you've got a cranked amp.
My instinct is to use a heavy grip, but I find that when I indulge that, my fretboard agility goes to hell. My hands and arms tense up, and I can't move as well as I can with a lighter touch. I wouldn't say that I've got a "light touch" per se, but I did do a good deal of work to lighten it up from my former stranglehold.
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I couldn't agree more Nate: I too am a heav picker but I like picks that have "grip"on them, where they cling to your thumb and finger more. Problem is a 1.5 is as heavy a grip pick as I can find, and I am the kind of fella who likes a 3.0 or at least a 2.0. I've looked on Amazon for 3.0 grip picks as I call them but no dice. Any suggestions?
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Put a little rubber cement on the part of the pick you hold. Let it dry. It'll get tacky and stick to you fingers a little.
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try some of the online retailers like Guitar Center, Musicians Friend and Sam Ash
they all sell picks and you can order on line
order a few different kinds so you can sample a few. then when you find one you like and have an online retailer to get them from, you'll be all set.
There are some new materials out there. Try the Dunlop carbon fiber JazzIII picks. they may not be 2.0 or 3.0, but the material is different, so those numbers don't mean as much, you know?
I've always used those Dunlop Tortex picks, the purple ones. I think those are 1.0, but I honestly don't know
but since you are ordering online, get a few different styles and get your money's worth out of the shipping. Then you can try out some different kinds, and like I said....they have apparently made some great strides in guitar pick manufacturing the last few years
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1. You're not hurting, or offending me, or anyone here, I don't think. But you are hurting yourself if you think asking a thousand questions to a thousand forum members is the best way to learn Jazz. You don't know how to filter it according to your own needs or tastes...yet... Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
2. If you can use this forum, you can figure out how to use Skype.
3. Even a lesson (with the "right" teacher for your specific needs) every 2 months will straighten you out more than the well intentioned (but too varied) advice on this or any other forum.
4. I'm no Guru, but I'm giving this advice courtesy of the Devil's Advocate. If it offends you, then you can put me on your "ignore" list.
5. I hope you make some good choices with your studies and wish you well with it all. Seriously.
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Without any video or audio it's hard to offer advice. Understand if you don't want to put your playing up for public scrutiny, but it's hard to help on the basis of descriptions.
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I may try the online sellers Nate as I am pretty well convinced that someone makes a 3.0 or at least a 2.0 that has a good grip on it. I've got Elixer 11's on my Gretsch (they talked me out of 13's but seemed to think I'd be ready for them soon) then 10's on my Epiphone (missing a spring so the tech said keep them light) and 13's on my acoustic which I have no trouble with. I've got another pack of Elixer 11's and I'm gonna use them as they sound good and play smooth, so no complaints. One last thing: the people at Guitar Center warned that I might break a string playing with a 3.0 pick but I've played quite a bit with the three and had no trouble. I mean, I'm a hard picker relatively speaking but i don't just beat the hell out of the strings and my guitar---we shall see...
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I agree with prince. Without specific focussed advice based around your playing this is all just so much hot air.
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Since you two are the experts and I'm learning more about what it is and takes to become a jazz guitarist I've arrived at the conclusion that learning and playing jazz which,yes, I can do on my own with the resources I have and can get, is for me and leaving all the little "hot air" chit chat on the forum is really a blessing because now I can focus on playing and practicing and not just talking about it. This is where you go your way gentlemen and I go mine, and I wish you both the best...Roscoe
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To play like a sax on guitar you have to use economy and sweep picking, right? This may seem like a dumb question coming from someone who has studied the Frank Gambale picking methods for jazz exclusively, but I'm a pretty damn fast alternate picker and though I have studied Frank's methods I kinda do my own thing with the technique. I apologize, I've not studied Frank exclusively: way back when I played my acoustic a lot I learned from Al DiMeola, a fierce guitarist in his own right who is an excellent player for me to learn from because he's schooled and I am not, so he is Mr. Method and I'm Mr. Anything (I know Frank is schooled as well but he is a different duck than DiMeola). Boston Joe has warned me against Coltrane right now but I love an Alto sax esp. and want to know how to extract those lines. If what I'm asking is beyond me at this point let me know and I'll go back to the changes of Autumn Leaves and Out Of Nowhere and practice improvisation with chord tones and some color tones. I know I'm doing the right thing by starting with the basics: in my other life when I played rock and metal I skipped a lot of basic guitar knowledge so I could burn baby burn before long but when I tried to solo over a 12 bar blues it sounded, uh, in-congruent? amateur? not bluesy? I can play blues well enough now but I had to go back a few lessons and Please don't ask me for a video clip, number one I'm not ready number two I hate dealing with this damn computer and number three don't ask me I am firm. Now for my part, I will listen to what I consider to be good advice: Boston Joe, mr.beaumont, grahambop, pkirk and others have done me a great service with their advisement and I will do my utmost to not repeat the same questions...Your's in Jazz, Roscoe
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Some general thoughts. When trying to emulate any instrument listen for:
the way notes are initiated
how they are sustained, wind instrument can get louder and softer within one note
how notes are ended
how a series of notes can be connected (legato) or played individually short (staccato) or points in between
tonal range of expression
Of course then there is the realm of each individual practitioner and the particular music being played.
There is a vast difference trying to emulate Johnny Hodges or Coleman Hawkins or Ben Webster,
Eric Dophy or John Coltrane or Archie Shepp or Ornette Coleman, Charlie Parker or Lee Konitz or Johnny Griffin,
David Binney or Melissa Aldana or Tim Berne, etc.
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Legato is your friend in this situation.
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Hey there Roscoe,
That's a great challenge,- sounding (or thinking?) like a sax player...
My own humble observations, which might be totally irrelevant, but might be useful.
There's often a big disparity between the way guitarists and horn players THINK and the role of the hands in the thought process.
I spend a weekly religious immersion and reflection with a horn player, Jerry Bergonzi and his working group. Listening to just how he comes up with phrases and lines with endless flow and no repeated licks is totally inspiring.
I also see large similarities in approach among guitarists that can limit the flow of ideas.
Horn players do not need to move their hands to change keys, tonal areas or line shapes. Guitarists are almost obsessed with hand technique, positions, practical phrases (licks), spectacular articulations, sometimes to the detriment of range, ornamentation, fluid transitions and the architecture of the solo itself.
I personally think it's great to immerse myself in soloists that are well beyond me. Binney, Hobbs, Potter, Brecker, Coltrane, McCaslin... because what I pick up on the fly can give me a handle on how to take apart the wall of understanding. Training the ear to hear complexity, make sense of it, discern the logic of, is so important even if it means it's beyond your ability to play it. Hearing thought. It's a worthy challenge.
And too, know the construction of solos. Horn players spend a lot of time creating linearity that flows over structures larger than a chord change, or even a tonal phrase. Where does this thought process come from? The strengths and limitations of breath.
A guitarist doesn't need to think "I'm running out of breath here, I'm gonna die" so they can think "I'm running out of notes, I'm gonna die." and that makes for taking the limitation of breathing out of phrases. And it makes for really busy playing. And it makes for playing that feels good to you and your hand and might not be so interesting for the listener.
If you can create interesting singing lines, you can learn something that many guitar teachers, methods and videos can't begin to impart. If you learn the importance of a strong and well stated simple line, than ornamentation and dynamics support something that is, in itself strong and convincing.
I get these reminders each time I see a good horn player.
My two cents anyway.
David
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The phrasing of your lines relates to the style of your playing.
You have to study the phrasing that in this case great saxohone players use
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I don't have any idea what economy picking or sweep picking is.
I mention this because I don't believe you have to pick any certain way to play jazz. When I was young "circular picking" was real popular. I have no idea what that is either
but I do have a tenor sax and I do break it out and fool around from time to time.
one thing that horn players do, and what a sax is built for, is playing more arpeggios in their runs. Also horn players practice patterns through all sorts of cycles...cycle of 5ths, cycle of 4ths, cycle of minor 3rds..all that.
I've used saxophone exercises for technical practice before, and its sort of refreshing. I just read them as if they were in concert pitch. I used to live with a tenor player and he had the Ramon Ricker books and I used to borrow them in the afternoons. That's where I got onto using sax practice studies. I figured if that's what horn players practiced, why not?
but their stuff is real rich in patterns and moving patterns through cycles, so its good stuff for us, too
anyway, don't think you have to pick any particular way to play horn lines. Just play the notes.
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Your advice, on the surface, appears to be simple. But to be mindful of all the elements and depth of their meanings at the same time, while trying to learn by ear or transcribe is challenging to say the least. I'm going to give it a go and see how I do: my ear is my weakest link. Thanks!
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