When to use the different guitar scales

**Klausm** · 03-28-2016, 12:50 AM

Hi there

I have played guitar for around 40 years but never played Jazz.
Jazz didn't really catch my interest in my younger days, so I have mostly been playing Blues, Rock & Funk.

Now getting older you kind of change taste in music and maybe want to try something else.
I have always been a kind of lead guitarist in the bands I have been playing in. Lately, I have got some (in my mind) great smooth Jazz backing track for practising. But when I try to play around with the track it doesn't sound very Jazzy.

Of course, there are many things that can have influence, I know that.
As some of you maybe have seen I just bought an Ibanez JSM-10, so on that one, there should be a chance to get it more jazzy. I know many of you will think "that is not a real Jazz guitar" but that will do for me. By the way, that guitar is great for Blues.
So I have the guitar and also have a nice amp (Peavy Classic 50) so it is now down to my ability to play with a Jazzy feel and use some Jazzy scales. So my problem is that I have played Pentatonic Scales all the time, and can't really get out of it. So yes, I will of course have to learn some new scales. My dilemma here is, that I'm not getting any younger and after have played so many years, I kind of just want to play and not just be practising again and again. Yes, I know I have to, but I was wondering if there was some good advice, tips and tricks to maker easier and faster to get started.
I am buying the Backing track online (Cofee Break Tracks) and they come with a PDF-file with the chords and sometimes some good advise like try using this scale for the first 4 bars and then....
I have attached a sample. In that samle which is in the key of Em, I would normally just play my Em Pentatonic scale, but as mentioned earlier doesnt really sound Jazzy. So the advice in that PDF-file is:

"Tip: Try using the E Dorian mode for the first 4 measures. Then use the G Dorian mode where the track modulates for measures 5 + 6."

I tried that and Vupti that was exactly that kind of advise I was after, it just sounds so much more Jazzy

So my big question here is: How do you know to use the different types of scales, like in the example, I would never have come up with playing that E-Dorian mode myself.

So some of the tips I am after, and I am sure many other people would like them also, is that instead of have to learn all those new scales which will take a long time, I found that the E-Dorian had all the same notes as a Bm scale which already know, so that is kind of a BIG shortcut for me. So now I "just" have to learn to play with a more Jazzy feel. And get rid of all the bad habits like bending the strings nearly all the times. I am sure you guys know but f.... it can be difficult to get rid of something like that, you maybe have done for 40 years.

As I am sure you can see English is not my first language, but I hope it makes sense anyway.

Any good advice, tips and tricks are much appreciated.

Thanks
Klaus

Hmmm It seem like I am not allowed to upload a PDF-file, so I have converted it to a JPG
When to use the different guitar scales-smooth-jazz-2-5-em-95-bpm-jpg

When to use the different guitar scales-smooth-jazz-2-5-em-95-bpm-jpg

**cosmic gumbo** · 03-28-2016, 03:07 AM

Actually learn to play the heads/melodies to jazz tunes. That's what helps get the new scale fingerings instilled in your muscle memory to help break your pentatonic habits. Tunes, tunes, tunes.

If you know simple childhood melodies, you should work until you're able to whip them right out on the guitar. Don't worry about scales and licks until you can do that.

Nothing worse than playing with a guy who wants to play jazz, but doesn't know his instrument well enough to play the melody to Happy Birthday or Pop goes the Weasel.

**JensL** · 03-28-2016, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

Actually learn to play the heads/melodies to jazz tunes. That's what helps get the new scale fingerings instilled in your muscle memory to help break your pentatonic habits. Tunes, tunes, tunes.

If you know simple childhood melodies, you should work until you're able to whip them right out on the guitar. Don't worry about scales and licks until you can do that.

Nothing worse than playing with a guy who wants to play jazz, but doesn't know his instrument well enough to play the melody to Happy Birthday or Pop goes the Weasel.

I don't know pop goes the weasel, so I guess that's why you are not calling me for gigs?

but joking aside learning the melody and playing songs with an actual melody is a huge part of playing jazz..

And the tips from Coffee break grooves on that progression are useless.

Jens

**Bambus123** · 03-28-2016, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Klausm

So my big question here is: How do you know to use the different types of scales, like in the example, I would never have come up with playing that E-Dorian mode myself.

So some of the tips I am after, and I am sure many other people would like them also, is that instead of have to learn all those new scales which will take a long time, I found that the E-Dorian had all the same notes as a Bm scale which already know, so that is kind of a BIG shortcut for me. So now I "just" have to learn to play with a more Jazzy feel. And get rid of all the bad habits like bending the strings nearly all the times. I am sure you guys know but f.... it can be difficult to get rid of something like that, you maybe have done for 40 years.

As I am sure you can see English is not my first language, but I hope it makes sense anyway.

Any good advice, tips and tricks are much appreciated.

Thanks
Klaus

I wondered about just the same when starting playing jazz. For me the breakthrough came when someone told me to analyze the song/melody/chords first.

I think it was this videos from Justin Guitar that made me understand how the scales related to the chords, and which scales/notes to play, especially nr 4, harmonic analysis.

JA-540 ? Blue Bossa (Jazz Standard) | free guitar lesson from justinguitar.com

You can also try to emphasize some of the notes, the third or the seventh (counting from the root of the scale) for example, when trying to sound more jazzy

And one more thing, learn the major scale (ionian) in C over the neck. Every other scale relates to the major scale in some way and C is the easiest to remember since it covers all the "white keys" on the guitar neck, aka the white keyboard on the piano, no sharps or flats.

If you were to play scales/improvise over a melody in the key of C it would look like this (simplified):

C chord - C major (ionian) scale
D chord - D dorian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on D)
E chord - E phrygian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on E)
F chord - F lydian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on F)
G chord - G mixolydian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on G)
A chord - A aeolian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on A)
B chord - B locrian (actually just a C major scale, but starting and stopping on B)

**Klausm** · 03-28-2016, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

I don't know pop goes the weasel, so I guess that's why you are not calling me for gigs?

but joking aside learning the melody and playing songs with an actual melody is a huge part of playing jazz..

And the tips from Coffee break grooves on that progression are useless.

Jens

Why are the tips from Coffe break useless??? As I wrote, it helped me a lot.

Maybe it could be a good idea instead just saying that something is useless, to tell why, and after that, maybe come with some tips which should be useful in your eyes

Klaus

**guitarandmusicin** · 03-28-2016, 05:44 AM

Have a look at the guitar and music institute, it has plenty of free resources for guitarists looking to play jazz.

**JensL** · 03-28-2016, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Klausm

Why are the tips from Coffe break useless??? As I wrote, it helped me a lot.

Maybe it could be a good idea instead just saying that something is useless, to tell why, and after that, maybe come with some tips which should be useful in your eyes

Klaus

Sure! They are useless because they are suggesting that you play dorian over a cadence that is resolving to another key.
It is not a good idea to train your ear to hear a II chord only over a cadence that moves to a I chord. That can potentially make things worse later. If you want to play songs with cadences you need to learn to play the cadences.

I'd suggest you learn to play the arpeggios for each of the chords and try to improvise with that, so in one position: Em7, A7 and Dmaj7 arp and in F: Gm7, C7, Fmaj7. Then try to learn to improvise with those first without the backing track and then with.

As Gumbo suggested you are altogether better off learning real tunes with melodies and changes: Blue Bossa, Summertime and that sort of stuff

Jens

**Klausm** · 03-28-2016, 06:19 AM

Ok Jens, that's better, thanks.

Because I am totally new to this type of playing, it is important to know, why a tip or advice is good or bad.

Anyway, it gave me a push in right direction. (I felt it like it was in the right direction).

I will try to do what you are suggesting, so thanks again.

Klaus

**JensL** · 03-28-2016, 06:21 AM

If you want to have my take on it, I have a video lesson on my channel on improvising over a II V I with arpeggios.

Jens

**medblues** · 03-28-2016, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

If you want to have my take on it, I have a video lesson on my channel on improvising over a II V I with arpeggios.

Jens

I watched this, it was very helpful, thanks.

**Jonah** · 03-28-2016, 07:02 AM

it's much more about harmonic concepts you imply while playing...

scale approach is not the only one...

but if you use it I think it makes sence to use it as actual harmonic refernces...

to me the idea of using scales in non-modal music is only for getting new realtions.. re-organization of reference points...

I was not much into scales or CST... but lately I get more and more into apllying scales as harmonic approach.. and I find it real fun... (and the question of learning or not is not coming up because I do not see it as a routine that gives some practical tips, I see it as a musical tool, constructive element)

you're mixing scales using the new realtions... realations is what really inmportant... so probably the best way to imply scales to traditional turnarounds is looking at it from ahead... from modal concepts in kind of retrospective way...

but using scales just for tips to play over ii-v-i - I do not see it very productive musically... there's a big chance that you lose musical melodic integrity...

I believe it would be better in this case to think from point of view of traditional harmonic relations of 7th chords functions in the context and traditional tension/release relation

**JensL** · 03-28-2016, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by medblues

I watched this, it was very helpful, thanks.

Thank you for checking it out!

**KirkP** · 03-28-2016, 01:43 PM

In a small clinic a few years ago Mimi Fox stressed that I really needed to focus on arpeggios. Coincidentally, she had just come out with a book and video course on the topic. ;-) But she was absolutely correct.

I think arpeggios are the foundation of good melody as well as bass lines. They can help you tell a story rather than noodling or shredding scales.

**StanG** · 03-28-2016, 02:03 PM

There are many ways to do it, but the biggest difference between the rock blues mindset and jazz may be that in Jazz you play TO a chord, rather than over the chords along the way.

In the first two bars of the example above, this would mean that whatever strategy you use for the Em7 and A7, you need to resolve it by ending on a chord tone of the Dmaj7. It is not just about noodling in the appropriate chord scale over each chord. At least if you want it to sound good.

My advice, imperfect, unsolicited, and without credentials, would be to work on two bar lines, using what you know, that end up/resolve on a chord tone of the D major chord.

If you don't know what the chord tones are, or how to figure out what they are, you need to study up on that. There a million resources online that will show you that, probably on the top of a google search.

**Jonah** · 03-28-2016, 03:21 PM

In a small clinic a few years ago Mimi Fox stressed that I really needed to focus on arpeggios. Coincidentally, she had just come out with a book and video course on the topic. ;-) But she was absolutely correct.

I think arpeggios are the foundation of good melody as well as bass lines. They can help you tell a story rather than noodling or shredding scales.

If scales are used as a source for new harmonic relations thee's no contradiction with this arpeggio approach...

13th chord arp makes a complete scale...

shredding arpegios is no better than shredding scales)))

I think the mistake often come from teh idea of mixing it with classical 'scale praticing' - when they practice major/minor scles up and down to achieve speed in lines... but that's absolutely diferent thing and purpose...

in jazz scale is much more like 'scale' in early music - though treated in a diferent way - it is mostly a basis for compositional concept... if you use them you should be able to play them fluently but that's not the main point... you can play them slowly - the most important thing is that you really hear them and you are able to apply these realation in live playing - so you should be quite quick anyway - but again quick not about playing them up and down - but to be able to recognize and apply the proper relations and notes..

it's teh same thing as with functional harmony - you should be able to imlply subs instantly... to do it you should hear it and be able to play it immediately...
it's the same thing - just the concept is different...

but no approach will play music for us... it's just a way to organize music that we should hear first in our minds...

**Roscoe T. Claude** · 04-06-2016, 09:06 AM

Hey man, I would say to use them when you want variation or when you're
dealing with different chords than you usually play over. All things considered
I have a good chord vocabulary and I recently "discovered" how to use the
modes within the scale and realized if you know, say, the melodic minor, you
already know its modes because it's all the same notes within the scale, just
different tonics. That said the guys responding to my threads seem experienced
and they are trying to guide me away from scales, saying in so many words that
it's the chord tones and extensions that matter and christianm77 who is a well
of knowledge shared a quote that said after you've learned a pattern don't play
it over and over again but move on--okay, that shot my rock and metal practice
in the head...but jazz is a different creature altogether so I have to allow for that.
Have a good one and if you have any questions let me know and I'll do what I can
for you...Roscoe

**Boston Joe** · 04-06-2016, 02:53 PM

When I first started playing jazz, I read all this stuff about "Use scale X for chord Y." When I tried it out, it sounded terrible. I was playing each scale from the root, as a scale. I knew it wasn't music, I was just trying to get the formula to work. Eventually, I tried using the arpeggios of the different chords, and THAT worked. Once I figured out that the scales were just rearranged arpeggios, a lot of things fell into place. I was using a bad viewpoint/entry point.

**Roscoe T. Claude** · 04-06-2016, 03:22 PM

Boston Joe, I followed the same line of thought you did with the scales and chords then I tried to play the backing track to Giant Steps by matching each chord change with a different scale and WHOA! it was like getting bucked off of a bull...I've got a Jazz Guitar book that I always talk about and it has many arpeggios in it though they are all "box" more or less and not sweep. I know you can convert them to sweep once you have learned them but I'm not sure that's my cup of tea anymore. I mean I was into the sweep sound at one time but now when I hear someone play like that I just yawn and get sleepy. Any hey, I told you that to ask you this: in rock and metal, as you may know, players often do wide stretch licks that are arpeggios and I thought if that could fit into a jazz template it would be useful to me because I've basically mastered those kinds of licks. Sorry to cut this short but I gotta go--Thanks!

**Boston Joe** · 04-06-2016, 03:47 PM

Any hey, I told you that to ask you this: in rock and metal, as you may know, players often do wide stretch licks that are arpeggios and I thought if that could fit into a jazz template it would be useful to me because I've basically mastered those kinds of licks.

I don't see why you couldn't make it work. I think the trick would be to get the rhythm into a groove that works as jazz language. We talk a lot here about harmony and note choices, but rhythm is THE most important thing in getting a good sound. If your rhythmic concept is together, you can get away with almost anything melodically.

**Roscoe T. Claude** · 04-06-2016, 04:53 PM

You may have given me the best single bit of information I've gotten since I've been on the forum: rhythm is something I need to diligently work on, but I know it can be fun too. I'm going to try to nail the changes and match the rhythm of Autumn Leaves and Misty, which I think I can with a little practice. Every time I've ever gotten frustrated trying to learn something on guitar I was not practicing the smart way. For me that usually means trying to go from A-Z in a hurry and missing the point. For the two tunes I just named I have a plan so I won't get ill getting the changes right. Thanks!

**Klausm** · 04-13-2016, 07:33 PM

Hi guys

Sorry, it took so long time for me to get back, but Wow so many great tips & tricks, ways of thinking at music, ways on how to approach the music and so on. So many thanks for that, much appreciated.

I was a little afraid it would be like this, that getting so many different answers can make it even difficult.

So I had to kind of find the red line through all the answers.

To be honest, sometimes when I want to write or ask something in here, I'm feeling it a little embarrassing, because English is not my first language, and also so many (for me) new musical terms/words and approaches, which I haven't heard before, even after having played guitar for around 40 years. But to learn I have to do it

I am kind of feeling that it is a little too late for me, to start learning to play Jazz. I'm 62 and my memory is not very good any more, so just to memorize some of the things I get from here like Arpeggios can be difficult.

I have always mainly been playing lead guitar, that is where my heart is, but for all those years, I have mainly been playing the pentatonic scales and mainly the Minor ones. I have always found that the minor ones sounded better and more melodic and easier to play (for me). Which have ended up with, that if the Key was a Major, I always played the solos in the relative Minor, and that is, what I want to get out of.

What I find a little confusing in all this, and also in the answers in here is, the difference between the scales and the Arpeggios.
As I see it the Arpeggios are the same notes as the scales but just jumping some of the notes so it doesn't sound like a Scale.
People are saying (as I understand it) that The Arpeggios are the mainly the chord notes just played one at a time, is that a correct understanding?

I fully understand that the scales are not meant to be played as a scale but more to have some reference points to which notes you can play in different keys. And when I play, I am trying to play so it is not just like the scales but just using the notes within the scales.
So when I do that isn't that a kind of Arpeggios?

I once jammed with a guy, and we had a talk about al this Pentatonic scales and I told that I want to get out of that, and he said to me "but you are not just playing Pentatonic scales - but you just don't know it"

I think he was right, so maybe I'm just looking for a way to put it more into an order and know what I'm doing.

Just to make things a little more clear on what I actually want and like to play. I'm not after what I call "Traditional Jazz" it's more like Smooth Jazz style I like and want to be better at. Hope that makes sense. I also think that, that it will be easier for me because it's more in relation to my normal style of playing. As an example, I love Larry Carlton's way of playing, and a good example would be his "Room 335" I'm sure all you guys know that one.

I was hoping to find some kind of short cuts and maybe they are here in all you guys answers to my initial questions. I just have to dig more into it.

One question more

About Arpeggios. Do you play them as the are, or is it like with the Scales just meant to be a kind of guidance of what notes you can play? What I'm trying to say, when I have learnt some arppegios and want to use them, should I skip some of the notes or.....?

I know it maybe all sound a little confusing what I'm asking, but I hope it makes sense anyway.

Again thanks for all your answers and help.

Cheers
Klaus

**Roscoe T. Claude** · 04-13-2016, 08:32 PM

Hi Klaus, delighted to have you on the forum: I hope everyone gives you a warm welcome...! Your questions about arpeggios and scales are perfectly valid, and I can understand how you want to get away from the minor pent. If you know the major scale you can use it to "dress up" the old stand by minor pent. (good blues players use passing and borrowed tones to keep their pent. and blues scales fresh) but I imagine you want to learn all of this arpeggio and scale madness!? The Major Scale and its modes are your key to life to begin with, so to speak, and while I recommend the 3 note per string variety others may say different and it comes down to personal preference. The best book I ever bought and have used for scales and modes is the Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes. It is no nonsense cut and dried but it is also exhaustive and contains every scale you'll likely ever need. The Guitar Grimoire Chord Encyclopedia is first rate and will give you all the chords you need but is more of a reference book than anything, so try the Guitar Grimoire Progressions and Improvisations for your music making needs now---

Klaus, if most or all of that was foreign to you just try this: Understand that arpeggios do come from scales like chords come from scales and arpeggios are the notes of a chord played in succession or in order, one note right after the other.
If you want the best explanation I've seen of arpeggios go to the Jazz Guitar estore and purchase the ebook The Easy Guide to Jazz Guitar Arpeggios. I recently bought it and am very pleased with the clear explanations and number of examples: the ebook offers an in depth study of arpeggios but is very accessible. Great to have you on Jazz Online Klaus and best of luck to you.

**donfully** · 04-13-2016, 08:35 PM

Knowing scales or even playing the "right" scale doesn't really guarantee a jazzy sound. It does provide some skeleton and structure to help you navigate through the progression so at least you don't sound "wrong," but that's a far cry from actually getting the jazz feel is more about knowing where your notes want to go next. The best way is to do transcription of a jazz solo that you like, learn it, then break it down to see how it fit in with the changes (vertical) and how it moving melodically (horizontal).

If you listen jazz long enough, it's a common understanding that any note would work over any chord, as long as it's moving in a way that makes sense. The only way I know and been brought up was to learn transcriptions.

**Klausm** · 04-13-2016, 09:54 PM

Hi Roscoe & Donfully.

Isn't this Forum Fantastic. I wrote a loooong clumsy question on what I would like to do, and less than an hour after I got great answers from you guys. Not just a Yes or No or a link, but good and adequate answers, thanks for that.

Roscoe:
First of all thank so much for your warm welcome!
No, it was not all foreign for me

About about own Pentatonic playing I am actually (sometimes) mixing Minor and Major scales when we play Blues, and is actually quite nice you can do that, and it doesn't sound wrong. But of course, they have the same notes, if we are talking about the relative minor, but just different start and endpoints. I guess that is what you meant by "dressing it up".
I will take a closer look at the book "Guitar Grimoire Scales and Modes" you recommend. Is that and E-book or a hardcopy?

When you wrote "that arpeggios do come from scales" which makes sense, but if all the notes in an Arpeggio are in the scale, theN Arpeggios are (kind of) a scale but you are only playing some of the notes, is that correct?
If that is correct then all notes you take from a scale and play must be an Arpeggio? Sorry I don't know if this makes sense at all?

Ahhh I think I got it now

when you wrote "arpeggios are the notes of a chord played in succession or in order, one note right after the other."

So is this correct, that arpeggios only have the notes from the chord?

And you are saying that "one note right after the other" So does it have to be in that same order? Of course, I know I can play whatever I want, but if I play them in a different order, then they are not an arpeggio anymore? Or maybe it doesn't matter what order I play them?

I will also have a look at the other book you recommend "ebook The Easy Guide to Jazz Guitar Arpeggios."

Donfully:
It makes perfect sense what you are saying "right scale doesn't really guarantee a jazzy sound." I'm sure you also have to have that "Jazz feel"
I'm also sure, that a really good Jazz guitarist can make it sound Jazzy, only using the Pentatonic scales.
Ha ha it could be a funny challenge in here to let people record some Jazz solos only using the Pentatonic Scales

Yes I have seen that explanation about "knowing where your notes want to go next" a couple of times in here, that you in Jazz are playing up to the next chord instead of on top of the chords. I think using that approach could maybe help me a lot, or at least go in the right direction.

When you are talking about "do transcription of a jazz solo" can you explain that a little more, please?

Thanks again for taking you time to answer.

**donfully** · 04-14-2016, 02:49 AM

Glad to help a fellow music traveler

Doing transcription is basically listen to a solo, write it down (if you can sight read, but if not, it's fine) than try to learn it note by note. Then you can see how the greats navigate melodically through the progression. There are some already written down transcriptions you can find online I'm sure.

As for knowing where the notes go next, it's both playing in anticipation of the next chord but also seeing how your current note is interacting with the current chord. Depending on that interaction, the note will have a certain tendency of where it's going next.

I just gave a lesson for a fella named blake on how to break out of the pentatonic box as well as getting a more jazzy feel. He was hitting a road block where his solos are just collections of licks he learned from others rather than able to create his own jazz lines. In the spur of the moment, I came up with a new approach and practice for him to try out, and lo and behold, things just opened up for him on that spot. I'm so encouraged by it that I'm planning to post a video about it next week when I have time.

I'll try to remember to also post the video here next week but in case I forget. Here's my youtube page you can subscribe to get that update:
https://www.youtube.com/user/donfully