how useful is perfect pitch

[mooncef]

how can you guys have the perfect pitch and please don't give me that it's born with you i don't believe in that , i believe in hardwork and learning despise age.
and how useful is it in jazz ?

[snoskier63]

I can't say how useful it is in jazz, or in any genre of music. As for learning perfect pitch, theoretically that should be possible. Realistically, not everyone can learn everything, many musicians don't have perfect pitch despite years of playing and performing, and some have it at a young age despite no formal training. Therefore, perhaps some are born with perfect pitch, and perhaps it truly can not be learned by all. That isn't the answer you want, but that's my belief. I have been listening and playing music for most of my 52 years, and while I can get pretty close at times my pitch is not perfect despite being told once that it may be.

If you think hard work can achieve perfect pitch put in that work and achieve it. First learn one reference note, and then try to gradually build off of that. Good luck.

[mooncef]

I can't say how useful it is in jazz, or in any genre of music. As for learning perfect pitch, theoretically that should be possible. Realistically, not everyone can learn everything, many musicians don't have perfect pitch despite years of playing and performing, and some have it at a young age despite no formal training. Therefore, perhaps some are born with perfect pitch, and perhaps it truly can not be learned by all. That isn't the answer you want, but that's my belief. I have been listening and playing music for most of my 52 years, and while I can get pretty close at times my pitch is not perfect despite being told once that it may be.

If you think hard work can achieve perfect pitch put in that work and achieve it. First learn one reference note, and then try to gradually build off of that. Good luck.

I think the french notation of note "dooo reeeee miiii" can get you much closer to how a note sounds that the "C D E" , i might be wrong though .

[Nate Miller]

you're right that it is learned. I had a friend in college that had perfect pitch. When we lived together, I had it, too, for a while.

One thing I learned from living with him is how people with perfect pitch actually reinforce their skill all the time. He was meticulous about every instrument in the house being in tune all the time. So every time you played, it was at pitch and in tune. Then he had all these ear training games we would do. Like we'd hear a siren and guess what pitch it was. He got me playing along with the TV, too.

what it really amounts to is a good memory for sound. One thing that got me thinking that I could do this is when my friend said to me "so how many times have you tuned a guitar in your life, anyway? you're telling me you don't know what a low E sounds like?"

[matt.guitarteacher]

A degree of acquired pitch is certainly understandable, but if you've ever been around someone with real perfect pitch it's a whole other thing. They just hear differently. They don't have to stop and think. They just know, and frustratingly, it has almost nothing to do with musical ability or experience. There's discrepancy with terminology re. perfect pitch which some will get hung up on and argue about, but it's mostly something you get at a very, very young age.

It's more common in cultures with pitch-based speech, but the "course" on learning perfect pitch is mostly a hoax in what it claims. I've got a teenager at home who always knows if I'm playing something in the "wrong key", and he has always had a very sing-song type of way of speaking. If you do some research on it, you'll find out that there's really not a practical way to learn the kind of perfect pitch which is easy and usable, in the way of those who have the "real thing". See if you can find the old thread on this forum about it.

Think about it, if it was easily acquired, every school would teach it. It would just be too valuable, if it were somewhat attainable. There are some really serious, monster musicians who "acquire" pretty accurate pitch, but they didn't acquire it by working on perfect pitch. The perfect pitch super course or whatever it's called is easily found, used. I listened to a good bit of it, myself, when I found a copy lying around somewhere. Think: a lot of talk about faith, and "keeping at it", not giving up, a bunch of inspirational mumbo jumbo, and not much at all in the way of teaching anything really usable.

From wikipedia.org:

"People may have absolute pitch along with the ability of relative pitch, and relative and absolute pitch work together in actual musical listening and practice, but strategies in using each skill vary.^[7] Those with absolute pitch may train their relative pitch, but there are no reported cases of an adult obtaining absolute pitch ability through musical training; adults who possess relative pitch but do not already have absolute pitch can learn "pseudo-absolute pitch" and become able to identify notes in a way that superficially resembles absolute pitch.^[8] Moreover, training pseudo-absolute pitch requires considerable motivation, time, and effort, and learning is not retained without constant practice and reinforcement.^[9]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch

[Nate Miller]

Matt, FWIW, I had a friend who did her masters on teaching this very thing. Now she had the sort of perfect pitch that is very rare. She actually saw colors. she also played piccolo in the orchestra, so yea, she could hear pretty good. She swore she could teach her gift to regular people. In fact, most players I've known with perfect pitch believe it can be learned by anybody.

My buddy I was talking about had the best ears of anybody I ever knew. His master thesis was on microtonal music and he built his own instruments that used notes derived from the 7th, 11th and 13th overtones. He also played low brass, and we all know that low brass players have the best ears on planet Earth. He said it was nothing more than a good memory for sound.

but when I lived with Steve I developed perfect pitch. I don't have it anymore because I didn't keep it up

the thing is being around players with really good ears makes your ears better too. If you were living with and playing in bands with somebody and the two of you were like brothers, always talking music and playing together and doing ear training drills and all that Steve did for me when we lived together for a couple years, you'd probably develop perfect pitch too

its just like a lot of things in music, the total immersion is critical, so without that you're lost

you could not in any way shape of form teach yourself this or learn it from a book

[targuit]

Honestly I am not sure that perfect pitch is such a gift or a curse. If you have to play a gig where the piano is not perfectly tuned to 440, I would think it would drive you a bit batty.

I have very good relative pitch, and often if I hear an instrument play a phrase, I can hit it accurately on the piano or guitar. I am content with that. After all, relative pitch is relative to a tonic. Perfect pitch is not the same as the kind of gift attributed to Mozart and others who could listen to a concerto and go home and write it out. Relative pitch works just fine in that situation. Seeing colors associated with pitch is an example of synesthesia if I recall the term accurately.

[Nate Miller]

Honestly I am not sure that perfect pitch is such a gift or a curse. If you have to play a gig where the piano is not perfectly tuned to 440, I would think it would drive you a bit batty.

you're absolutely right. I've heard my friends call it more of a curse many times

right there too is when the instrument in question is in tune with itself, but not at standard pitch

that's why we always just tuned to Steve. It was just easier that way. Easier on him, I mean

[pauln]

The terms are Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch.

Relative Pitch is what musicians use, and it is invaluable for that.

Perfect Pitch is popularly misunderstood...

Most assume it is a superior form of hearing, but in fact it is the original and primitive way to hear; birds have perfect pitch in the sense that they will not respond to calls recorded and played back at a different frequency. Many experiments have suggested that perfect pitch is the norm in the animal kingdom, with relative pitch emerging quite late in only a few higher forms.

The definition of Perfect Pitch is problematic because the standard concert tuning for A=440Hz has only been that for less than 100 years; the past few centuries have seen that same "A" range over the better part of an octave.

This means that the answer to "What note is this pitch?" has had different answers for different times and places in history. So what tuning would Perfect Pitch be? If it is variable that diverges from "perfect".

The definition also has a problem with temperament; there have been over 25 temperaments and a half dozen popular ones. If a Perfect Pitch person today hears in equal temperament, he would be off pitch if living in the past before equal temperament was implemented, and likewise for a modern person whose Perfect Pitch was based on one of the many old temperaments.

So which temperament would Perfect Pitch be? If it is variable that also diverges from "perfect".

Furthermore, if the test is to provide note names for pitches, even in a world where the standard tuning and temperament are fixed to A=440Hz equal temperament, a single response answer falls within a 100 cent span comprising a pair of superimposed 50 cent side spans covering half the frequency ranges adjacent above and below... so "perfect pitch" results only have to be within a half of a semitone close... that is not even good enough to play music where Relative Pitch would find that margin of error intolerable.

Just for fun, let me add this:

I can walk over to my guitar and sing the open notes perfectly before playing them.
I can sing my door bell tone before pushing it.
I can sing the Microsoft log on and log off melodies on my computer in advance of them playing.

Does that mean I have Perfect Pitch?

No; in North America we are surrounded by an almost subliminal 120Hz tone from all the transformers in all the electronic things around us our whole life. One with Relative Pitch will naturally notice that reoccurring daily sounds like these are easy to recall because they have been heard with respect to the 120Hz tone...

[matt.guitarteacher]

Honestly I am not sure that perfect pitch is such a gift or a curse. If you have to play a gig where the piano is not perfectly tuned to 440, I would think it would drive you a bit batty.

I don't think it quite works like that. I don't know that people hear in hertz or whatever. It's more often about being the wrong key or whatever , from what I've experienced. I don't think 439 versus 440 drives them CRAZY.

The terms are Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch.

Relative Pitch is what musicians use, and it is invaluable for that.

Perfect Pitch is popularly misunderstood...

Most assume it is a superior form of hearing, but in fact it is the original and primitive way to hear; birds have perfect pitch in the sense that they will not respond to calls recorded and played back at a different frequency. Many experiments have suggested that perfect pitch is the norm in the animal kingdom, with relative pitch emerging quite late in only a few higher forms.

The definition of Perfect Pitch is problematic because the standard concert tuning for A=440Hz has only been that for less than 100 years; the past few centuries have seen that same "A" range over the better part of an octave.

This means that the answer to "What note is this pitch?" has had different answers for different times and places in history. So what tuning would Perfect Pitch be? If it is variable that diverges from "perfect".

The definition also has a problem with temperament; there have been over 25 temperaments and a half dozen popular ones. If a Perfect Pitch person today hears in equal temperament, he would be off pitch if living in the past before equal temperament was implemented, and likewise for a modern person whose Perfect Pitch was based on one of the many old temperaments.

So which temperament would Perfect Pitch be? If it is variable that also diverges from "perfect".

Furthermore, if the test is to provide note names for pitches, even in a world where the standard tuning and temperament are fixed to A=440Hz equal temperament, a single response answer falls within a 100 cent span comprising a pair of superimposed 50 cent side spans covering half the frequency ranges adjacent above and below... so "perfect pitch" results only have to be within a half of a semitone close... that is not even good enough to play music where Relative Pitch would find that margin of error intolerable.

Just for fun, let me add this:

I can walk over to my guitar and sing the open notes perfectly before playing them.
I can sing my door bell tone before pushing it.
I can sing the Microsoft log on and log off melodies on my computer in advance of them playing.

Does that mean I have Perfect Pitch?

No; in North America we are surrounded by an almost subliminal 120Hz tone from all the transformers in all the electronic things around us our whole life. One with Relative Pitch will naturally notice that reoccurring daily sounds like these are easy to recall because they have been heard with respect to the 120Hz tone...

The terminology I was referring to was perfect pitch, absolute pitch, required pitch.... Some feel the need to make distinctions . I don't really care that much. But the kind of thing where you have to practice to keep it up or work on it, isn't perfect pitch. People that have "perfect pitch" don't have to work on it. They might have to work on applying relative pitch to it, but that's a little different. That's why some prefer to call the other "acquired pitch".

Equal temperament and the other naming factors really don't have anything to do with the actual skill or understanding which we call "perfect pitch". I can learn to say words in multiple languages referring to the same thing, but I still intrinsically know what an object is when I see it, without having to think about it. Same thing with perfect pitch.

It doesn't matter if it used to be B-flat and now it's called A. If you're colorblind it doesn't really matter about semantics regarding names of colors , and likewise if you see colors , labeling is really a separate issue. We're talking about the skill/ability.

Most people simply can't hear pitches out of thin air, regardless of what they're called.

[JazzMuzak]

Furthermore, if the test is to provide note names for pitches, even in a world where the standard tuning and temperament are fixed to A=440Hz equal temperament, a single response answer falls within a 100 cent span comprising a pair of superimposed 50 cent side spans covering half the frequency ranges adjacent above and below... so "perfect pitch" results only have to be within a half of a semitone close... that is not even good enough to play music where Relative Pitch would find that margin of error intolerable.

FWIW, I have a family friend who has perfect pitch. She was voluntarily practicing piano for 6 hours a day from the age of 6. She can sight read just about anything and claims she can hear any music she sees, including entire scores, in her head. The first time I played Queen's Bicycle for her she charted it out with all the meter changes and modulations on one pass through just for fun.

She can hear just about any melody or chord, tonal or atonal clusters, and play them back or write them out without hesitation. True "Absolute pitch" relative to A440 definitely exists..

Now....whether that level of pitch recognition can be taught...I'm pretty skeptical...

[Nate Miller]

" I don't think 439 versus 440 drives them CRAZY. "

no, but drop that to 435 or 433 and watch the fun. They aren't born knowing A=440, but they have developed that.

I'm saying what I'm saying about perfect pitch from my experience playing with musicians who had it.

some of the things a person with perfect pitch can do is they can sing a phrase, and they will be in tune and at pitch with out needing any reference. My choir director does this every rehearsal.

they can tune up perfectly without a reference. Many times I've found that violin and low brass players tend toward having a higher incidence of perfect pitch. I have no research to link you to on that, its just what I've noticed in a life spent among musicians. The violin and low brass players have the best ears

generally, these guys can pick out a tune by ear on the first chorus and have all the chords and the tune by the second time through.

just like what JazzMuzak described. I've seen it on the bandstand too many times

[Jonzo]

I tested both my sons for perfect pitch when they were little, and neither had it. Now one of them does. Or maybe what he has is an absolute reference point and relative pitch. I don't know.

They both started violin around age three, and their mom would sit with them at the piano and play the correct note whenever they drifted away.

At age 12, when he switched to bass, the one with perfect pitch could always tell when his instrument was off, and get it into correct pitch without a tuner. Because of this, people often asked him if he had perfect pitch. Now, at 16, he can identify any note he hears. I'm not sure if he can sing random pitches accurately. He is in a choir now, so that might develop later.

They are both very good musicians for their ages, and neither seems to benefit or suffer from having or lacking perfect pitch. They play differently, but I could not tell you who is "better". Both can play adequately in professional settings.

The one with perfect pitch doesn't like theory much and has taken more of a "hear melodies in your head and find them on the instrument" approach, while the other likes to explore theoretical concepts on his instrument. But both know theory, and forget about it while they play.

The one with perfect pitch hasn't done any composing, while the other has composed several pieces.

The one with perfect pitch plays bass; the other plays violin. The bassist's teacher has always said that bassists have to be the best listeners, and develop into good band leaders and composers as a result.

If there has been any noticeable benefit to having perfect pitch, it would be the ability to play a fretless instrument in tune. Playing in tune is hard on both double bass and violin. The bassist has always played in tune effortlessly. The violinist needs to work at it.

The one with perfect pitch drops time occasionally. The one without has great timing.

A small, unscientific sample, but there you go.

This is really interesting on the subject: Behaves So Strangely - Radiolab

[SamBooka]

you're absolutely right. I've heard my friends call it more of a curse many times

right there too is when the instrument in question is in tune with itself, but not at standard pitch

that's why we always just tuned to Steve. It was just easier that way. Easier on him, I mean

My boss (who plays guitar and is so good that I get depressed often when I hear him playing) told me to check out some Christmas Carolers the were in the lobby at work. I did.. and it hurt.

He was thought they were great and felt the tone of their voices were nice but pitchwise they were all over the place. He couldnt tell.

That said I dont think I have good ears for pitch. I dont use buzz feiten nuts or sweetened tunings and non adjustable rosewood bridges are fine for me (within a 4-5 cents I dont care).

I am weird

[Little Jay]

Interesting thread. While reading it I wondered if I have memorized notes after all these years of playing so I sang the note what I thought should a low E.. Checked it and I was right! Than I sang what I thought should be a C. Checked it and I was right again! Didn't even know I could do that! But I'm pretty sure I don't have perfect pitch.

[SamBooka]

Interesting thread. While reading it I wondered if I have memorized notes after all these years of playing so I sang the note what I thought should a low E.. Checked it and I was right! Than I sang what I thought should be a C. Checked it and I was right again! Didn't even know I could do that! But I'm pretty sure I don't have perfect pitch.

Back when I was a kid working in a music store I was used to use a tuning fork for tuning. They got to the point where I could actually memorize a 440 and be pretty much dead on. I don't think I can do that now though

[matt.guitarteacher]

I changed keys on a tune we've been playing with youth at church for an adult group, and my son, (who plays drums and didn't have a chart in front of him) almost couldn't play. He literally stopped playing and said, "Wait. Isn't that the wrong key?"

I tried to stifle my mild annoyance that he even KNEW that, and thought, "Son, I wish I had that 'handicap'". I'm always amazed at the ability to hear that way.

[BigDee62]

Honestly I am not sure that perfect pitch is such a gift or a curse. If you have to play a gig where the piano is not perfectly tuned to 440, I would think it would drive you a bit batty.

This. And it's not the piano (which are mostly digital these days anyway), it's the singers. I can't stand my wife's singing, or my best friend's, which is really unfortunate.

People think I have perfect pitch but I don't believe such a thing exists. I have very strong relative pitch. I got it from years of playing a fixed pitch instrument (I started playing piano when I was 5).

I believe that with the possible exception of autistic savants, you'll never see a singer or drummer with "perfect" pitch, unless they also play a fixed pitch instrument (Matt I'm not calling your drummer son autistic but I bet he plays others instruments too).

A strong sense of pitch is very helpful in transcription, which in turn can help any musician improve in their chosen musical genre - be it jazz or something else.

For example, I transcribed Lyle Mays' Highland Aire and arranged it for solo piano - without writing any of it down. That's laziness and bad, and most any decent jazz pianist could do the same. But I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to transcribe the extensions and altered notes spread across several octaves, without having that strong sense of pitch.

Strange question.

[Cunamara]

One person I know who has perfect pitch can perform a fun party trick: play a chord. Any chord. He can tell you the notes, in order. He recognizes the notes of anything he hears, just like I recognize the colors blue, yellow, red, white, black, etc. There's just no doubt that that note is an Eb or that that chord is made up of G B Db Eb F Ab. He always knows what key a song is in when he hears it.

[cosmic gumbo]

My Little League coach said perfect pitch was definitely a game winner, especially a perfect fastball, my music teacher said perfect pitch was a curveball.

[icr]

Less and less important as technology becomes accessible. Clip on tuners and 'waveform to midi' converters and pitch recognition software are pretty common these days.

[BigDee62]

Less and less important as technology becomes accessible. Clip on tuners and 'waveform to midi' converters and pitch recognition software are pretty common these days.

I'm guessing you haven't actually tried transcribing using one of these products.

I tried 7th String Transcribe - among the best available products according to the reviews I read - and I didn't find it very useful. It can do single note lines quite well but I don't need technology for that.

I can also recognize basic triads and 7th chords quite easily, but sometimes complex stacked chords with extensions and altered notes can pose a challenge. For transcribing that sort of thing, pitch recognition software still has a ways to go in usefulness.

I do use slow-downers for fast passages, but that's a different subject.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Sheesh, this thread. Half the posts show an absolute failure to even attempt to understand anything about what perfect pitch actually is. It's completely different from relative pitch/ figuring things out by ear, and isn't the same as "remembering" a note somewhat and sometimes being able to guess correctly at pitches.

Why not understand the topic before commenting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch

[Jonzo]

how can you guys have the perfect pitch and please don't give me that it's born with you i don't believe in that , i believe in hardwork and learning despise age.
and how useful is it in jazz ?

Unfortunately, research indicates that it cannot be acquired later in life. There is evidence suggesting that there is both a genetic and environmental component. Some people have the gene(s), and it becomes activated by exposure to absolute tonality through a tonal language, or musical training, at a young age.

Perfect pitch is very rare, so most great musicians don't have it, and didn't need it. Your time would be better served focusing on acquiring other musical skills.

If you want to see if you can acquire perfect pitch, you can download the flashcard program Anki, and then import this pitch training deck. When using the deck, you should probably wait about 30 seconds between each attempt, so you are not using relative pitch to find notes in relation to a card you just attempted. In other words, you want to let the last attempted pitch fade from your short-term memory before attempting another one.

I found it infuriating.

[BigDee62]

Sheesh, this thread ... Why not understand the topic before commenting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch

You kindly didn't call anybody out by name but I'll respond nonetheless.

My friends, my family, my professors and classmates at North Texas believed I have it. I grew up amongst professional musicians and I've never personally known somebody with better pitch, including my sister who is a prof at Berklee and several friends who are session players in NYC. I can readily names the pitches I hear until they're in a very dense stack and then I admit I'm challenged. If that means I don't have perfect pitch, fine, because I wasn't claiming I had it - as I don't believe it exists. But if I don't, neither does anybody else I know. And I'm fully aware of the academic studies on the subject, thank you.

That's just my opinion, we're all entitled to own opinions, so I hope it doesn't invite any further condescension.