how useful is perfect pitch

[eddy b.]

My dad can call out the name of any note he hears accurately, chords and keys too he plays trombone. I can't do that but I can hear well enough for my needs. I spent a lot of time learning off of tapes and CDs. I also like to turn tunes into solfege excercises.

[matt.guitarteacher]

You kindly didn't call anybody out by name but I'll respond nonetheless.

My friends, my family, my professors and classmates at North Texas believed I have it. I grew up amongst professional musicians and I've never personally known somebody with better pitch, including my sister who is a prof at Berklee and several friends who are session players in NYC. I can readily names the pitches I hear until they're in a very dense stack and then I admit I'm challenged. If that means I don't have perfect pitch, fine, because I wasn't claiming I had it - as I don't believe it exists. But if I don't, neither does anybody else I know. And I'm fully aware of the academic studies on the subject, thank you.

That's just my opinion, we're all entitled to own opinions, so I hope it doesn't invite any further condescension.

Well, I don't know why you would assume that I was speaking to you personally. It's been talked about in many other ways throughout the thread. What you're describing sounds like perfect pitch to me. But half the thread, as I have said, is basically "everything else".

Hearing that someone is out of tune or that an instrument is out of tune isn't perfect pitch. Being able to figure out songs on the piano isn't perfect pitch. Learning to hear an isolated pitch with much practice and then losing the ability after a time isn't perfect pitch.

I'm sorry that you thought I was talking to you personally. Again, I'm not sure why you would assume that. I posted the link, because perfect pitch has been talked about generally as having good ears, as opposed to what you're describing (perfect pitch)...

[princeplanet]

Well, there are people with cloth ears, people with relative pitch, people with pseudo perfect pitch, and then people with the real deal perfect pitch. But it doesn't end there, some people (usually somewhere on the autistic spectrum) also possess superhuman recall, almost like "photographic:" memory , but for the ears!

A close friend seems at least partly gifted in this way, and has PP. Also, he can get you to play a 10 note cluster on the piano, and he'll tell you with no hesitation which 2 notes you have left out! That's no party trick you'd wanna learn just ti impress your friends. Recognising pitches, or pitch collections, for him is like recognising colours for the rest of us.

[smokinguit]

I don't think perfect pitch is useful at all. What's useful is whether you are aware (your ears) how each note within a key ought to sound and that if you play any other note you are playing "out". It is not that relevant that if you play a "C" and I blurt out without much thought that "you've just play a C". I don't care for that answer. I want to know if you understand how that C function within the key/scale/chord. If the answer is no your perfect pitch means nothing.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think perfect pitch is useful at all. What's useful is whether you are aware (your ears) how each note within a key ought to sound and that if you play any other note you are playing "out". It is not that relevant that if you play a "C" and I blurt out without much thought that "you've just play a C". I don't care for that answer. I want to know if you understand how that C function within the key/scale/chord. If the answer is no your perfect pitch means nothing.

If God wants to give me perfect pitch tonight, as I sleep, I'll take it. I'll accept the annoyances which accompany it. It's kind of like asking, "Is there a benefit to knowing the names of every note on the fretboard, as you play?". Um, yes...

But that's just pie in the sky, hypothetical for most of us normal humans, and I'd imagine that that's basically what you're getting at. For those who don't possess it, there is about zero benefit in working on perfect pitch... with precious life-energy minutes, hours, days etc. which could otherwise be spent learning useful musical skills, like relative pitch or playing skills.

I think people hear a statement like that and think that maybe there's no value in perfect pitch at all. It just ain't so. Could be very valuable, if used well by those who possess it. It's just that you aren't going to acquire it through some magic method.

I do think it's interesting that there seems to be an anecdotal notion of basically "breaking even" for musicians who have perfect pitch, compared to those who don't. I wonder if relative pitch is more difficult, for example, with the added distraction of hearing note names and not really having to use it in the same way, kind of the way that players who play by ear at a really high level seem to have trouble learning to read music for attentions span reasons.

[smokinguit]

If God wants to give me perfect pitch tonight, as I sleep, I'll take it. I'll accept the annoyances which accompany it. It's kind of like asking, "Is there a benefit to knowing the names of every note on the fretboard, as you play?". Um, yes...

I think you miss the point of my post due to me not making myself clear. When I say it's not useful I mean that it's not the key to mastering your instrument. It could be helpful of course. But it's not the key. You still need to work really hard to understand jazz. Learning and applying relative pitch is better in my opinion. A lot of people believe that if you possess it you somehow do not have to sweat as hard as other people. This is the vibe I get from a lot of these perfect pitch discussions. It's not a ticket to greatness.

[matt.guitarteacher]

You still need to work really hard to understand jazz. Learning and applying relative pitch is better in my opinion. A lot of people believe that if you possess it you somehow do not have to sweat as hard as other people. This is the vibe I get from a lot of these perfect pitch discussions. It's not a ticket to greatness.

I agree. That's basically what I was I was trying to say in my post as a whole.

[dasein]

I've posted in these sorts of threads before, but usually nobody bites. I will try again.

I learned perfect pitch as an adult (early 20's). I learned it through a teacher who specifically taught it.

I'll be happy to answer any questions, but just looking through the thread, here are my thoughts.

Think about it, if it was easily acquired, every school would teach it. It would just be too valuable, if it were somewhat attainable. There are some really serious, monster musicians who "acquire" pretty accurate pitch, but they didn't acquire it by working on perfect pitch. The perfect pitch super course or whatever it's called is easily found, used. I listened to a good bit of it, myself, when I found a copy lying around somewhere. Think: a lot of talk about faith, and "keeping at it", not giving up, a bunch of inspirational mumbo jumbo, and not much at all in the way of teaching anything really usable.

I don't think perfect pitch is useful at all. What's useful is whether you are aware (your ears) how each note within a key ought to sound and that if you play any other note you are playing "out". It is not that relevant that if you play a "C" and I blurt out without much thought that "you've just play a C". I don't care for that answer. I want to know if you understand how that C function within the key/scale/chord. If the answer is no your perfect pitch means nothing.

I have to laugh, because whenever these kinds of discussions come up, you hear both of these attitudes.

"If you could learn perfect pitch, then EVERYBODY would be teaching it."
"Well, it's not that useful, anyways."

you're absolutely right. I've heard my friends call it more of a curse many times

right there too is when the instrument in question is in tune with itself, but not at standard pitch

that's why we always just tuned to Steve. It was just easier that way. Easier on him, I mean

There are certain times when it can be obnoxious, but honestly, a lot of people with perfect pitch whine about it because they're secretly humble-bragging about it.

The definition also has a problem with temperament; there have been over 25 temperaments and a half dozen popular ones. If a Perfect Pitch person today hears in equal temperament, he would be off pitch if living in the past before equal temperament was implemented, and likewise for a modern person whose Perfect Pitch was based on one of the many old temperaments.

So which temperament would Perfect Pitch be? If it is variable that also diverges from "perfect".

Oh for Pete's sake...

Nobody is born with A=440 in their heads. You learn it through socialization and memorization. If you learn to hear A=440, you can pretty easily hear pitches that are CLOSE to 440 but not exactly.

I don't really work with quarter tones, but I can hear them pretty easily because they sound... wait for it... halfway between certain pitches.

I once attended a workshop with Ali Akbar Khan. There were maybe 15-20 students in the room, each one with a sarod, which has between 17 - 25 strings.

He could pick out when a single string on an individual student's instrument was out of tune. They don't use equal temperament in Indian classical music.

His ears learned those sounds because those were the sounds that he used.

Just for fun, let me add this:

I can walk over to my guitar and sing the open notes perfectly before playing them.
I can sing my door bell tone before pushing it.
I can sing the Microsoft log on and log off melodies on my computer in advance of them playing.

Does that mean I have Perfect Pitch?

No; in North America we are surrounded by an almost subliminal 120Hz tone from all the transformers in all the electronic things around us our whole life. One with Relative Pitch will naturally notice that reoccurring daily sounds like these are easy to recall because they have been heard with respect to the 120Hz tone...

This kind of reasoning is always funny to me.

"I can remember certain pitches and melodies, but SURELY I don't have perfect pitch, that's ridiculous!"

Don't denigrate that kind aural memory. Embrace it.

Unfortunately, research indicates that it cannot be acquired later in life. There is evidence suggesting that there is both a genetic and environmental component. Some people have the gene(s), and it becomes activated by exposure to absolute tonality through a tonal language, or musical training, at a young age.

Perfect pitch is very rare, so most great musicians don't have it, and didn't need it. Your time would be better served focusing on acquiring other musical skills.

If you want to see if you can acquire perfect pitch, you can download the flashcard program Anki, and then import this pitch training deck. When using the deck, you should probably wait about 30 seconds between each attempt, so you are not using relative pitch to find notes in relation to a card you just attempted. In other words, you want to let the last attempted pitch fade from your short-term memory before attempting another one.

I found it infuriating.

This would be a terrible way to learn perfect pitch. If that's how the scientific studies were set up, it's no wonder nobody learned it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I've posted in these sorts of threads before, but usually nobody bites. I will try again.

I learned perfect pitch as an adult (early 20's). I learned it through a teacher who specifically taught it.

Okay. What is the process, generally.... or as specifically as you like....?

I've checked out the super course you'd find in the back of the guitar magazines growing up . Found it somewhere lying around. Complete snake oil BS IMO, and I've heard plenty of testimonials to the same re. THAT course.

I am, honestly, perplexed as to why it wouldn't be taught more widely if it's a learnable skill.

[Gilpy]

I know a lot of musicians, and they don't talk about "perfect pitch", or seem to think that it's a particularly desirable thing. It just does not seem important to my peers.

A skill that is highly valued is having "good ears": the ability to hear a musical phrase, chord or tone and know what it is and what to do with it. This comes easier to some than others.

I certainly don't have perfect pitch, but I can put new strings on my guitar and tune it and it'll be right on with the digital tuner. I can hear a note or phrase and play it right away on guitar. I can figure out the notes in a chord I hear and construct harmony parts. These are skills that a lot of musicians possess, and I think they're good enough.

I don't think the lack of "perfect pitch", as strictly defined, is a handicap to a performing musician.

[targuit]

I'm still not sure why acquiring perfect pitch is so desirable when all you need is what most great musicians already have - very well developed relative pitch.

Not trying to be difficult. I just don't get why learning what studies show is not doable is so desirable. Perhaps when reincarnated the next time around apply for a soul in China.

[Boston Joe]

Years ago, I had a roommate with perfect pitch. When I was listening to records (this was back in the vinyl days), he'd often come running out of his bedroom to adjust the speed of the turntable.

[targuit]

I don't have perfect pitch yet I feel really annoyed when I hear cuts where the speed has been slowed down or sped up altering the pitch. It is almost something I feel like nausea. Happens on Youtube a lot but also more rarely on some recordings of major artists.

[lammie200]

Years ago, I had a roommate with perfect pitch. When I was listening to records (this was back in the vinyl days), he'd often come running out of his bedroom to adjust the speed of the turntable.

That Robert Johnson box set that was issued years ago is all f'd up. If you heard the same recordings slowed down you would hear a real person singing and playing a real guitar.

[dasein]

Okay. What is the process, generally.... or as specifically as you like....?

I've checked out the super course you'd find in the back of the guitar magazines growing up . Found it somewhere lying around. Complete snake oil BS IMO, and I've heard plenty of testimonials to the same re. THAT course.

I am, honestly, perplexed as to why it wouldn't be taught more widely if it's a learnable skill.

I know the "super course" in question, and while I've never checked it out, from what I understand most people never get anything out of it. I'm not surprised.

I think most people would need a teacher that knows what they're doing. Someone who can point things out. Someone who can adjust the material to where you're at in the moment.

But there's the catch. You need a teacher to learn it, but there are hardly any teachers teaching it. So no one learns it, and then there's nobody to teach it.

The teacher I learned it from was a Russian emigre, who received their training way back in the old days of the USSR. I don't know enough about that pedagogy to know whether it was a system they had, or whether it was something they came up with on their own.

I'm still not sure why acquiring perfect pitch is so desirable when all you need is what most great musicians already have - very well developed relative pitch.

Not trying to be difficult. I just don't get why learning what studies show is not doable is so desirable. Perhaps when reincarnated the next time around apply for a soul in China.

Basically, I was very interested in music without a lot of key references... free jazz/improvisation, the music of people like Webern... that sort of thing.

You definitely CAN get around that music with very well developed relative pitch, but for me it seemed like the quickest route to get to where I wanted to go. Your mileage may vary.

I still use relative pitch. It's a very useful thing to have, and I should probably work on it more. They complement each other very nicely.

[dasein]

That Robert Johnson box set that was issued years ago is all f'd up. If you heard the same recordings slowed down you would hear a real person singing and playing a real guitar.

This is a myth, incidentally.

[matt.guitarteacher]

The teacher I learned it from was a Russian emigre, who received their training way back in the old days of the USSR. I don't know enough about that pedagogy to know whether it was a system they had, or whether it was something they came up with on their own.

Ok...but again:

What is the process, generally.... or as specifically as you like....?

[lammie200]

This is a myth, incidentally.

[dasein]

See this for reference:

The Robert Johnson speed controversy

There's almost no supporting evidence the recordings were sped up (other than "I like the sound better that way") and a whole lot of supporting evidence that they weren't.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Holy crap! Never heard anything about this and know nothing of it, but as an owner of said box set for many years, the first video with adjusted speed immediately resonated with me, on the gut level, as just being "RIGHT".

Wow. Almost wouldn't care if it's not. Beyond every other consideration, the phrasing just makes so much more sense. Low notes at the end of phrases.... Wow. Going to have to check this out.

[dasein]

Ok...but again:

She wrote a book on it that goes through the method:

Len Rhodes Music: Ebooks - Perfect Pitch for You

Still think you would need a teacher, or at the very least a very dedicated practice partner.

Or if you're in Boston, you can look her up directly.

[lammie200]

See this for reference:

The Robert Johnson speed controversy

There's almost no supporting evidence the recordings were sped up (other than "I like the sound better that way") and a whole lot of supporting evidence that they weren't.

You might be taking this "evidence" as conclusive but I don't see it that way. With what little is known about Robert Johnson I see it as inconclusive. There is a difference between something that is inconclusive versus something being a myth.

[matt.guitarteacher]

She wrote a book on it that goes through the method:

Len Rhodes Music: Ebooks - Perfect Pitch for You

Still think you would need a teacher, or at the very least a very dedicated practice partner.

Or if you're in Boston, you can look her up directly.

Ok. Thanks.

[dasein]

You might be taking this "evidence" as conclusive but I don't see it that way. With what little is known about Robert Johnson I see it as inconclusive. There is a difference between something that is inconclusive versus something being a myth.

What actual evidence is there that two recording engineers, on two completely different recording dates separated by a year, decided to speed up the recordings by the exact same speed?

[targuit]

Dasein - you still have not answered Matt's question. What are the principles of the method to teach 'absolute pitch'?