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Would like some thoughts on this.
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09-21-2015 11:29 AM
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Jazz is mostly a "seventh chord music"
BUT
triads are three notes of that. One needn't always play all four notes.
The III triad gives you the Imaj7 as long as the root is established, just as one example.
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It's kind of frightening how many guitarists can't play triads. It's one of the first things a piano player learns. We tend to jump straight from open chords into drop 2 & 3 voicings.
As fumble points out, jazz rarely contains unadorned triadic harmony. Chuck Wayne was one of the first guitarists to both categorize and perform 7th chords in all inversions yet he considered most chords of four notes or more as superimposed triads. All these chords were classified in terms of their harmonic strength or ‘weight’ in the following descending order: major, minor, diminished, augmented. For instance, in the case of a Em7b5, the E diminished triad (E, G, Bb) would be outweighed by the G minor triad (G, Bb, D) and therefore be classified as a predominantly minor-based chord. Modern players such as Kurt Rosenwinkel (a big fan of the triad master, George van Eps) have continued this line of investigation and often apply triads in polytonal contexts and work with triad pairs in their soloing.
Here's my approach for learning close-voiced triads all over the neck that I give out to my students:
Triad approach to mapping fretboard
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@PMB, thanks for that approach.
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YOu can get a really interesting sound using triad pairs. John Scofield also uses triads in his playing a lot.
Check out this video, the sound of this guy using the triad pairs concept is awesome, and not mainstream-ish.
Triad pairs begins at 0:51
Also You can express the upper structures of a chord (9,11,13) with a triad, which seems very cool in a solo.
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I love manipulating triads, more so than 7th chords. Get the George Van Eps Method for Guitar
here:
eBook: The George Van Eps Method for Guitar - DjangoBooks.com
And be prepared to study through a book that will take you back to the past and into the future
"Roads? Where we're going we don't neeeeeed roads"
My favorite movie as a kid. And it's how I learned about Night Train and Chuck Berry
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i think of e.g. g min 7 in terms of four triads
135
357
579
7911
the 'sound' you get when playing lines out of these four triad areas is multi-applicable (the differences between gm7, c7, em7b5, Bbmaj7 #11, Dm7 get lost in a very satisfying way)
i love to play an idea over Gm7 using one of these triads and then re-hear it over say Bbmaj7#11 - yummy
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if you understand triad as three notes in 3rds, and inversion as just rotation of these three notes then it's one thing... and it is more a constructional element involved in more complex harmony... and thinking in triads here is more of supplimmentary tool...
if you understand triad as it is used in classical functional harmony (3 notes in thirds arranged in 4 voices) and inversion as bass voice rotation - then it's another thing...
.Would like some thoughts on this
With all respect... when someone initiates a topic I really expect that he would be the first to say something about it
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Apologies. Thought it was self explanatory, but that's my self-absorption. My question, really, is to what extent I should master triads and inversions to progress in jazz (and not only in jazz, but in fingerstyle improv in general)? There are so many ways I can spend my practice time. I understand conceptually about triads and know how to play them in all their inversions up and down and across the neck (at least on all the groups of 3 consecutive strings). But my question is really about whether or not I need to have these down cold as a basis to really progressing, or is a good understanding of them enough and I will master them gradually as called upon in relevant ways when learning tunes?
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To be true - I do not know... I never hezitated if I felt interest in something
If you feel like you get something from it - why not just give it a try...
If you just fing this is a topic you just di dnot cover yet - I am not sure
No-one can tell you if it works for you..
In general application of triads in jazz guitar seems to be too vague to say for sure..
some use functional harmony - if you want to master classical voicings on guitar - that moght take time - but are you sure you need it?
But mostly it's a simplified approach to more complex harmony: some apply it as upper structures, some as components of more complex chords... some use them as a way to organize melodic outlines of complex chords...
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George Van Eps reputation in the 1930s and beyond was due not only to his incredible technique and facility with a plectrum but also his deep understanding of modern harmony.
Van Eps would superimpose triads over basic harmonies to delineate extensions. For instance, iii and vi over I for Imaj7 and I6. He would use ii and vi to outline IV6 and IVmaj9. Diminished and augmented triads were used to create tensions over dominant chords.
There were few guitarists playing chord melody/solo during the 30s, 40s and 50s who could even come close to Van Eps in concept and execution and those who did were usually his students.
I posted some audio clips of early Van Eps playing in another thread. Anyone who is interested in hearing how he applied the information in his Guitar Method in real world situations should give them a listen.
Regards,
Jerome
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As far as I'm concerned, triads are like DNA. Yes, there are aspects to music that don't involve triads... like quartal harmony. But they're like the building blocks of everything in music. Almost every single master of this art form that I've ever heard talk, read an interview with, studied with, etc... has at some point spoken at quite length about their relationship with triads. The simplicity of them allows for each of those guys (and all of us) to get creative with them and apply them in all sorts of interesting ways... much like DNA. We all have DNA made of the same 3 or 4 individual parts... yet look around and see all the variation possible.
If I could only devote myself to studying one music topic for the rest of my life... triads would DEFINITELY be in the running. And there might not be much else I would consider.
Originally Posted by PMB
This is so true PMB. I took two years of piano when I was about 8, and the first things we did were to play 'chords'. Though the chords were just simply triads. And if you ask just about any 8 year old studying piano, while they might not know that they're called triads, they can play triads. On the flip side... I've taught lessons to professional guitar players. Guys who gig and even teach private lessons. And I asked them to play some different triads around the fretboard. And they couldn't.
Our instrument is designed differently than the piano, and it facilitates a different type of learning... like you said. To me, if you want to truly unlock the fretboard, doing some SERIOUS study of triads and their relationship to harmony is huge. I'm currently studying with a vibraphonist/pianist and writing my thesis on applying the piano player's way of thinking about harmony, with upper structure triads, onto the fretboard. It's amazing how quickly I've stumbled onto so many incredible chord voicings that sound beautiful and pianistic, yet I've never really seen in the guitar lexicon.
And the single-note improvisational element to that is just as intriguing to me.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
Thank you. This is what I was looking to find out. Time for me to give up making excuses and get busy.
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my take is that .... Originally Posted by larryb
if you have your triads inversions basically understood and have a few of them down ok ....
then its better to learn tunes in chordmelody , ( your own ear arrangements not book learned ones )
this will force you to use and learn all of the
triads in context
eg
IV triad = rootless iimin7
iv minor triad= rootless iimin7b5
the tunes teach us musicLast edited by pingu; 09-22-2015 at 01:00 PM.
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agreed Jordan , (despite what I just said !) Originally Posted by jordanklemons
triads are great ....
I heard Metheny saying words to the effect of ....
that his thing since 'Bright size Life' onwards
was the triad thing
makes sense to me , all those moving
triads over pedal bass etc that he does
great stuff ....
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Yeah, if I was only allowed to do one thing, it would have to be play tunes. Originally Posted by pingu
I suppose I should have said that if there was one thing I could focus on in the shed it would be triads.
Tunes offer their own studies and are worth spending plenty of time on. I try and think of every tune almost like an etude. A study to teach me something.
But there are tons of things I've discovered while putting triads under the microscope that I never would have stumbled upon just from learning tunes.
It's a tough balance to find for me to keep new concepts and ideas being explored and also maintaining and growing the repertoire. I find I tend to lean more towards one for a while until I feel things are out of balance, and then I'll start to learn too far back the other way until it feels unbalanced in the other direction.
I've been focused intensely on utilizing upper structure triads both harmonically and melodically for about the last 6 months. I played a couple sessions the other day and felt exceptionally less comfortable than I should have. So now I need to reassess. It's sort of a constant gauging of things for me. Maybe one day I'll find the right balance. Who knows?
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I've heard Larry Carlton talking about triads ALOT. I gather it's an essential part of how he learned/thinks about the extensions and simplifying altered chords...
Try googling "triads" with Michael Brecker, Jerry Bergonzi (hexatonics), Gary Campbell, Walt Weiskopf...
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George Van Eps reputation in the 1930s and beyond was due not only to his incredible technique and facility with a plectrum but also his deep understanding of modern harmony.
There were few guitarists playing chord melody/solo during the 30s, 40s and 50s who could even come close to Van Eps in concept and execution and those who did were usually his students.
Well said, monk. But I would take it a step further and go back to my nod to Back to the Future. GVE is STILL at the top of chain (beyond the grave, RIP) for his understanding of modern harmony. Yes, Ben Monder and Ted Greene took it further. Yeah, Rosenwinkie really ran with those GVE and approached the studies under his lens. But... you could study GVE for the rest of your life and still hang with the most modern jazz musicians on the planet, if you used your ear to inform your studies.
I can't say that about any other guitarist, even Barry Galbraith (and I love Barry's teachings and his playing)
That is how important GVE is to the evolution of harmony on our beautiful instrument (I had a hiccup, I played for 20 minutes yesterday... I know, I know, but I can't be away from my baby for that long...elbow
)
That said, please don't start with his Harmonic Mechanisms study. Look up that George Van Eps Method for Guitar and stick with that for 2-3 years (or more) and digest and master the nooks and crannies on every page before going to the Harmonic Mechanisms. Rob has some great videos on Youtube if you need a reference. James Chirillo (I mention him to give legitimacy to what I say, because I dunno if you guys would know my other teachers: Kenny Wessel, and Bruce Arnold) was extremely strict about making the studies as legato as possible. Good, that's a very important concept to GVE's ideas.Last edited by Irez87; 09-23-2015 at 12:17 AM.
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You'll get no argument from me when it comes to GVE. Originally Posted by Irez87
George Van Eps reputation in the 1930s and beyond was due not only to his incredible technique and facility with a plectrum but also his deep understanding of modern harmony.
There were few guitarists playing chord melody/solo during the 30s, 40s and 50s who could even come close to Van Eps in concept and execution and those who did were usually his students.
Well said, monk. But I would take it a step further and go back to my nod to Back to the Future. GVE is STILL at the top of chain (beyond the grave, RIP) for his understanding of modern harmony. Yes, Ben Monder and Ted Greene took it further. Yeah, Rosenwinkie really ran with those GVE and approached the studies under his lens. But... you could study GVE for the rest of your life and still hang with the most modern jazz musicians on the planet, if you used your ear to inform your studies.
I can't say that about any other guitarist, even Barry Galbraith (and I love Barry's teachings and his playing)
That is how important GVE is to the evolution of harmony on our beautiful instrument (I had a hiccup, I played for 20 minutes yesterday... I know, I know, but I can't be away from my baby for that long...elbow )
That said, please don't start with his Harmonic Mechanisms study. Look up that George Van Eps Method for Guitar and stick with that for 2-3 years (or more) and digest and master the nooks and crannies on every page before going to the Harmonic Mechanisms. Rob has some great videos on Youtube if you need a reference. James Chirillo (I mention him to give legitimacy to what I say, because I dunno if you guys would know my other teachers: Kenny Wessel, and Bruce Arnold) was extremely strict about making the studies as legato as possible. Good, that's a very important concept to GVE's ideas.
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As I follow GVE's instructions and go through his book, what should I be doing, that is, thinking about, so that the exercises are not simply exercises in technique? Or is that his purpose in the early stages of the book and that the applicability will take care of itself or make sense over time? I just want to make sure I get the most out of this. Originally Posted by monk
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Just play the exercises. All your thought should go into keeping the chords legato. When you get comfy with them, let us know. I have some exercises that Steve Herberman gave me, and some of my own. But you gotta get the triads down in all string sets first.
By the way, I use A LOT of those triads and some cluster type triads in my own comping. I love them because they are easier for me to hear and be melodic with. Everyone's got their own bag for comping, and GVE is a huge part of mine.
My comping bag...
1. GVE
2. Cluster triads (check the Bill Evans and Jeb Patton stuff I posted)
3. Dyads
4. Closed voice 4 note voicings
5. Drop 2 and 3
6. My ear (most important part)Last edited by Irez87; 09-26-2015 at 12:55 PM.
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Great. Thanks. Strangely enough, I am more comfy with my drop 2s than with triads. But, I'm determined to finally get these things down. Originally Posted by Irez87
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Triads may be basic building blocks, but i think applying them well in a jazz context is a more advanced topic.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
And that's what I'm trying to learn. But, man, phew, like everything else......None of this is easy. I can use all the help and advice I can get.
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All of my upper structure playing/arpeggios, derive from stacked triads. Even quartal. Stacked sus triads.
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