importance of mastering triads and inversions?

[Irez87]

Those quartal triads are hard to get working. I mean, the root position is pretty intuitive, but the inversions are hard to hear IMO. They give you really cool sounds, like that Coltrane kinda sound... I keep a book of all my own comping ideas. I have to add more to it. I don't think I'll ever publish the little book, but I would gladly share my ideas with y'all.

[henryrobinett]

I studied with Walter Bishop Jr. In NYC in the late 70s. He was big on this then. I did a whole study inspired in part from his stuff and Coltrane/Tyner. For me it's all about the inversions and stacking, chromaticism. Ive recently started revisiting it. It's all in the back room of my mind. It's cool to pull them back up. But I never practice them any more.

I only had five positions of sus triad arpeggios so it was relatively easy, but still a challenge to play. But I discovered it sounds better, for me, yo just use little bits of them, rather than doing full two octave or more runs a lot.

[larryb]

Keep talkin', folks. I'm listening and all ears. I'm after acoustic chord melody fingerstyle type stuff, with runs, and not sure how I'll use all of this yet. But, I'm listening, practicing and have a lot of faith in what ya'll are saying. Just hope that I can make some improvement between now (65 years old) and the time the grim reaper pays me a visit. Then again, if I don't, I won't be here to know that I didn't, but at least I'm trying and enjoying the journey.

[Irez87]

Hey Henry, how much detail are you willing to share about quartals for free on this forum (I respect that people got to pay the bills. Money in the bank, as the saying goes)?

After listening to McCoy, it seems like he does more than just stack voices in fourths to get his trademark sound. Should we start another thread on how to use quartals cohesively, and musically, like McCoy, Bishop, and Corea?

There's rhythmic subtleties to this too. Most books on comping neglect rhythm, why?

Larry, please! My dad is over 70, and he is in better shape than me in mind and body. Enjoy the journey and let it ride... magic carpet ride?

[henryrobinett]

irez - it seems as though that video goes into more detail than I can. I forgot most of those patterns. But that's what he was into: one octave fourth patterns. I moved away from pattern playing, as much as I could. But it's cool it's being covered. I bought a book from him. I hope I can find it. What a great guy. Long time ago!!!! Ill see what I can do though. I have no problem sharing.

I started by running the 4ths modally. Just a row of 4ths up the mode, whatever that is - dorian, mixolydian, lydian. But where it gets real interesting is approaching those modal 4ths chromatically with different inversions. Even throwing in the occasional tertian triad.

If you're thinking modally with the 4ths, either put the drone, modal root at the bottom, or think with it there. It gets very Tyner-ish.

Here. I threw this up real quick. Don't sue me. t's a very quick throw together for you.

Introduction to Fourths | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons

[Irez87]

Thanks Henry

Bishop's thing on targets, with the two hands starting on a different note sounds freaking wild!

I know most of those triads, btw. I think it would be cool if one of those transcribed the comping to McCoy Tyner, Walter Bishop, or Chick Corea. There's poly rhythms, use of octave pedals, use of poly tonal poly phonics (that's what Bishop is doing with those two hand target lines). I could ask Jeb Patton the next time I have a lesson with him.

Henry, what you and Jordan are doing should serve as a model to us as well. Seek out the best musicians to study with. You did that with Bishop, Mingus, and countless others. Jordan is doing that now with Stefon Harris and Pete B. I did that with James Chirillo (raking his lawn, pulling weeds, and traveling an hour and a half each way by train and bus into Jersey from NYC was no picnic. Was it worth it, hell yes!) And then I did that with Jeb Patton... I even convinced Jeb to bring his wife along to practice accompaniment for a vocalist. I was lucky that I started my jazz studies with this guy:

and this...

He maybe a little short, but his playing reaches for the sky. Kenny Wessel gave me all the fundamentals, and he was the warmest soul I ever studied with. Plus, he hipped me to WCKR (I'll never forgive him for Phil!)

Henry maybe done with his educational journey, but I am still reaching. Some of these guys will cut ya a deal if you can't afford full price (I couldn't), so just ask. There are great teachers all over the world, ya just gotta find them. Or Skype... (like I did with Steve Herberman)

**steps off pedestal**

And remember, have fun!

[henryrobinett]

That's great. Don't get me wrong. I'm still reaching and learning. I'm just not taking lessons, not for many, many years. Not that I can't still get something of great value. I mainly learn on the bandstand and playing with others. At a certain point after you've ingested so much stuff, you gotta shit or or off the pot. Take what you know, what you are and believe in it. Of course I learn stuff here too. The beauty of what folks are doing with this instrument. That's always great. As soon as you stop learning new things you're done.

I'll check those vids soon! Thanks!

[GuitarGerry]

After listening to McCoy, it seems like he does more than just stack voices in fourths to get his trademark sound. Should we start another thread on how to use quartals cohesively, and musically, like McCoy, Bishop, and Corea?

I worked on 4th chords a fair bit when I first starting getting into jazz. Funny now that I look back on it, because I knew **** all about conventional harmony! One of the 'set backs' of being self-taught, I suppose. Anyway, upon hearing A Love Supreme I was mesmerized by McCoy Tyner and started trying to work out what he was doing. The same chord shape all over the neck? I thought my ears had failed me..."that can't be right!" It was only later, when I got to talk to a pianist, that I discovered it's quite difficult to shift stacked 4ths modally on a keyboard. Well, harder to do on a piano than the guitar. So my ear was right, after all.

Too often guitarists think in a guitaristic way when approaching 4th chords ('quartal harmony' sticks in my throat for some reason). Pianists typically keep to three notes in the left hand. Why? Try anymore than that and you've clearly got extra fingers/are extra-terrestrial. Mostly I keep the same shape on the 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings. When you analyse 'triads' stacked in 4ths on every degree of the Dorian mode (lets keep things simple), each voicing outlines the basic tonality, but only partially. Some positions of the scale render voicings with a stronger harmonic relationship to the tonal centre than others. So in order to fully establish a tonal centre, you usually need to shift between two or more adjacent chord positions. By shifting between those voicings, you create a 'mood' (if 17th century sources are anything to go by, this was the original spelling of 'mode'...although that may be coincidence). Same thing applies with any chord shape shifted modally. Any minor or mi 7th can be shifted up a tone and back down, for example, which is the basis of the So What intro.

Now that you've got a comp going with (bare minimum) two different positions of 4th chords, you have to imagine what pianists do with the right hand. This is where the real magic begins. A very guitaristic approach is to just think of the upper note of each voicing as the 'melody' and then construct simple melodic ideas by shifting the 4th structure in a block, up and down the neck. Far more interesting is to play independent melodies on the 1st string. Pianists will typically play octaves in the right hand to provide a simple upper voice when comping. Not really possible on the guitar but it is possible to sustain notes and play simple melodies on the top string. By keeping everything 'concerted' (rhythmically synchronized), and by using notes of the Dorian mode, or blues scale, without regard for the harmony below, you can create some fascinating harmonies (and challenging fingerings: sometimes you have to transpose the 4th voicings to the 5th, 4th and 3rd strings to facilitate an idea). Sustaining a pedal on the 1st string is also pretty cool. The 'melody' should always be simple. It's only 'background' for the main event (the soloist).

Another cool thing is to think of the 4th chords as three concerted melodies, moving in parallel. Just as you can ornament the top melody note using 'chromatic auxiliaries', the same applies to each melody hidden within the chords. So you can move into any one position 'en masse', chromatically from above/below. All this means is that you maintain the same chord shape and slide into position from above or below. Similarly you can move the basic shape chromatically between positions: three melodies moving together as chromatic passing notes. Again, all this gets really interesting when you sustain mode notes above, while all the movement goes on down below. Or playing simple melodies above...especially in contrary motion.

None of this stuff is advisable when playing behind other guitarists. You'll slice into their range when they're soloing. However, I used to back up a sax player doing all this stuff and it worked really well. Same with any wind instrument really (the differences in tone make crunches palatable...plus modal music invites that edginess).

[henryrobinett]

I like the sound of mixed inversion 4ths. And playing them stacked is not the only way pianists play them. But you may be right about McCoy. I think he did.

[GuitarGerry]

I like the sound of mixed inversion 4ths. And playing them stacked is not the only way pianists play them. But you may be right about McCoy. I think he did.

Absolutely, shifting stacked 4ths modally (the typical Tyner thing) is only one way of using 4th voicings.

[Drumbler]

Would like some thoughts on this.

Define "mastering".

[larryb]

Define "mastering".

Learning something well enough to be able to use it at will without having to stop to figure it out. Set my bar fairly low. But for me, actually, that's a relatively high bar.

[henryrobinett]

Learning something well enough to be able to use it at will without having to stop to figure it out. Set my bar fairly low. But for me, actually, that's a relatively high bar.

Hat defines mastery pretty well to me. Knowing it so well you don't have to THINK about it is another way of saying the same thing.

[larryb]

Hat defines mastery pretty well to me. Knowing it so well you don't have to THINK about it is another way of saying the same thing.

Yes. I like that definition.

[larryb]

The woodshed can be a lonely place.

[henryrobinett]

The woodshed can be a lonely place.

That's the only way I know where you can get it done.

[larryb]

That's the only way I know where you can get it done.

I know. But, I very much appreciate the reaffirmation that it can get done. There's an an element of good faith and trust in the process in all of this.

[christianm77]

Would like some thoughts on this.

I would say learning triads and their inversions is the most important work on pitch collections you can do.

It's not the only thing but a surprisingly large amount of the jazz language is based on triads. Just take a look at Parker's lines - or Metheny's. Let alone Django!

I would advise learning to play solos on triads before seventh chords. Why? Because when you come to solo on seventh chords or more complex tertial structures it makes things a lot easier to deal with (and in my opinion a lot better sounding) to focus on the triads embedded within those chords.

I'll give you a simple example - when soloing on a Cmaj7 chord, base your lines on Em triad (this may be easier to hear with a freeze pedal or a loop to hold down the chord at first). Embellish . The effect will be better, and hipper than using a Cmaj7 arp in most cases. Later, you can try a G, a Bm or a D.

Playing lines in triads through the mode is a common contemporary jazz trope.

Once you have a thorough grasp of triads, you can introduce scalar notes, which can be easily understood in relation to the chord tones if you understand where the 1 3 and 5 are.

[christianm77]

I worked on 4th chords a fair bit when I first starting getting into jazz. Funny now that I look back on it, because I knew **** all about conventional harmony! One of the 'set backs' of being self-taught, I suppose. Anyway, upon hearing A Love Supreme I was mesmerized by McCoy Tyner and started trying to work out what he was doing. The same chord shape all over the neck? I thought my ears had failed me..."that can't be right!" It was only later, when I got to talk to a pianist, that I discovered it's quite difficult to shift stacked 4ths modally on a keyboard. Well, harder to do on a piano than the guitar. So my ear was right, after all.

Too often guitarists think in a guitaristic way when approaching 4th chords ('quartal harmony' sticks in my throat for some reason). Pianists typically keep to three notes in the left hand. Why? Try anymore than that and you've clearly got extra fingers/are extra-terrestrial. Mostly I keep the same shape on the 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings. When you analyse 'triads' stacked in 4ths on every degree of the Dorian mode (lets keep things simple), each voicing outlines the basic tonality, but only partially. Some positions of the scale render voicings with a stronger harmonic relationship to the tonal centre than others. So in order to fully establish a tonal centre, you usually need to shift between two or more adjacent chord positions. By shifting between those voicings, you create a 'mood' (if 17th century sources are anything to go by, this was the original spelling of 'mode'...although that may be coincidence). Same thing applies with any chord shape shifted modally. Any minor or mi 7th can be shifted up a tone and back down, for example, which is the basis of the So What intro.

Now that you've got a comp going with (bare minimum) two different positions of 4th chords, you have to imagine what pianists do with the right hand. This is where the real magic begins. A very guitaristic approach is to just think of the upper note of each voicing as the 'melody' and then construct simple melodic ideas by shifting the 4th structure in a block, up and down the neck. Far more interesting is to play independent melodies on the 1st string. Pianists will typically play octaves in the right hand to provide a simple upper voice when comping. Not really possible on the guitar but it is possible to sustain notes and play simple melodies on the top string. By keeping everything 'concerted' (rhythmically synchronized), and by using notes of the Dorian mode, or blues scale, without regard for the harmony below, you can create some fascinating harmonies (and challenging fingerings: sometimes you have to transpose the 4th voicings to the 5th, 4th and 3rd strings to facilitate an idea). Sustaining a pedal on the 1st string is also pretty cool. The 'melody' should always be simple. It's only 'background' for the main event (the soloist).

Another cool thing is to think of the 4th chords as three concerted melodies, moving in parallel. Just as you can ornament the top melody note using 'chromatic auxiliaries', the same applies to each melody hidden within the chords. So you can move into any one position 'en masse', chromatically from above/below. All this means is that you maintain the same chord shape and slide into position from above or below. Similarly you can move the basic shape chromatically between positions: three melodies moving together as chromatic passing notes. Again, all this gets really interesting when you sustain mode notes above, while all the movement goes on down below. Or playing simple melodies above...especially in contrary motion.

None of this stuff is advisable when playing behind other guitarists. You'll slice into their range when they're soloing. However, I used to back up a sax player doing all this stuff and it worked really well. Same with any wind instrument really (the differences in tone make crunches palatable...plus modal music invites that edginess).

I did this too, early on, albeit less thoroughly. Quartal triads 1 4 b7 etc make a nice companion to your tertial triads.

[christianm77]

Those quartal triads are hard to get working. I mean, the root position is pretty intuitive, but the inversions are hard to hear IMO. They give you really cool sounds, like that Coltrane kinda sound... I keep a book of all my own comping ideas. I have to add more to it. I don't think I'll ever publish the little book, but I would gladly share my ideas with y'all.

Try them with a pentatonic melody note. Also experiment with chromatic oblique motion with the melody note - parallel fourth moving chromatically against a top note sound really hip and are massively guitaristic.

EDIT: duh, just realised this in GuitarGerry's post. There's a lot of information there!

[Irez87]

All great ideas, which I will try this weekend. Thanks!

[whiskey02]

Triads may be basic building blocks, but i think applying them well in a jazz context is a more advanced topic.

I don't see why this needs to be true, after all one of the major benefits of utilizing triads is simplicity. Playing (around with)a minor triad on the 7th degree of a maj7 chord gives you rich color tones, you don't have to think 7 9 #11 you just play a minor triad. I find it allows you to play the changes with more variety, less predictable pathways. Perhaps the greatest benefit of using triads is that it makes you much more likely to play with a better sense of melody and avoid sounding like you're running scales.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't see why this needs to be true, after all one of the major benefits of utilizing triads is simplicity. Playing (around with)a minor triad on the 7th degree of a maj7 chord gives you rich color tones, you don't have to think 7 9 #11 you just play a minor triad. I find it allows you to play the changes with more variety, less predictable pathways. Perhaps the greatest benefit of using triads is that it makes you much more likely to play with a better sense of melody and avoid sounding like you're running scales.

There's already a good bit of knowledge beyond "building block" stage assumed in the highlighted section above. Sure. A minor triad is simple, but you're not applying it in a really simple way there, if we're having the "basic building blocks" or "why don't we just start with triads?" conversation.

Generally, I'd say that playing off of a basic tonal center across multiple chords is simpler than playing specific changes. Then, playing "straight" changes is simpler than substitution/modal interchange etc.... and then, on and on. The "good stuff" with triads certainly isn't in playing a C major triad over C major 7 or even in playing diatonic subs. I would think that's more the "building block" phase.

[christianm77]

There's already a good bit of knowledge beyond "building block" stage assumed in the highlighted section above. Sure. A minor triad is simple, but you're not applying it in a really simple way there, if we're having the "basic building blocks" or "why don't we just start with triads?" conversation.

Generally, I'd say that playing off of a basic tonal center across multiple chords is simpler than playing specific changes. Then, playing "straight" changes is simpler than substitution/modal interchange etc.... and then, on and on. The "good stuff" with triads certainly isn't in playing a C major triad over C major 7 or even in playing diatonic subs. I would think that's more the "building block" phase.

I would start improvisors with triads on the changes. 1 3 5 over everything. But I'm a little bit weird.

I also tend to teach historical styles of jazz guitar. That said 1 3 5 accounts for a surprising large amount of stuff.

[whiskey02]

There's already a good bit of knowledge beyond "building block" stage assumed in the highlighted section above. Sure. A minor triad is simple, but you're not applying it in a really simple way there, if we're having the "basic building blocks" or "why don't we just start with triads?" conversation.

Generally, I'd say that playing off of a basic tonal center across multiple chords is simpler than playing specific changes. Then, playing "straight" changes is simpler than substitution/modal interchange etc.... and then, on and on. The "good stuff" with triads certainly isn't in playing a C major triad over C major 7 or even in playing diatonic subs. I would think that's more the "building block" phase.

I see and respect your point Matt but I can't 100% agree with it. Most likely because I don't have a great memory of what it's like to be a beginner and I am not an experienced teacher. The most likely scenario here is that you are closer to correct than I am. Still, I wish my first teacher had (and maybe he did but it was over my head) explained how a 7th chord contains multiple, stacked triads. I think knowing this would change how one would study and learn 7th chords. It also would cover diatonic substitution; it IS diatonic subs. Again, I am probably forgetting the beginner experience and you are most likely right. I can only think of it, the way I currently think of it.