Jazz Guitar Soloing Without Music Theory

**larry "K"** · 03-19-2015, 09:44 AM

i too bought all those books with multitudes of black dots all over the pages. you know, scales & modes til you realize you really can't follow the dots the same way every time, in any key, in tempo. so, i figured out a way to solo without applying theory/thinking while doing it. there are 4 places on the guitar neck where you can solo in any major key including it's relative minor. (3 places in the key of "B") i recently did a jazznight at the local library which is on youtube. (youtube jim roland library jazz) will take you to three segments of me & my bass player plus three local amateur girls. it's a bit folksy-no real rehearsal or editing, but you'll see & hear me using this system.

**Al Br.** · 03-19-2015, 01:39 PM

Are you just using scale box structures to play thru?

**docbop** · 03-19-2015, 02:14 PM

If the dots on a grid training wheel aren't working for you checkout Nir Felder's lesson video over on MyMusicMasterClasses website it's an inexpensive lesson. I'd say it's for serious guitarist only.

Nir Felder - Guitar Lesson (1) - My Music Masterclass

Nir says the dots on a grid just didn't click for him so he started by learning his major scales on one string. Then moving to each string. Part of process was also learning to name every note on the fretboard from end to end on all strings. As he say all other instruments the player know all the notes on they instrument, but guitarist including some advanced players don't know the notes on their instrument. He practices playing scales using full range of the neck changing string anywhere at any time. He move on to intervals and other exercises.

Now it gets tough and an exercise I keep seeing popup more and more on improv sites. What to do is think of a chord, now just play random notes on the neck. First name the note, then name the scale degree it is related to the chord. I just thought use a looper and have to chord playing while doing this and now your getting your ear trained with the scale degree. Boy adding ten minutes of that to your daily warmup will definitely make you a Ninja master of the guitar with ear, hand, and chord relationship internalized in about a year or so.

Okay I got work to do....

**drbhrb** · 03-19-2015, 03:10 PM

Noodling in major key positions won't get you making chord changes...

**setemupjoe** · 03-19-2015, 03:25 PM

I wonder if anyone ever posts on physics chat groups about how they've figured out a way to do the math without having to read all those squiggles. The no theory approach to physics.
To me no theory equates to no understanding.

A disclaimer. I teach Harmony & Theory as well as Ear Training at MI so I am obviously biased on this point.

TH · 03-19-2015, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by larry "K"

i too bought all those books with multitudes of black dots all over the pages. you know, scales & modes til you realize you really can't follow the dots the same way every time, in any key, in tempo. so, i figured out a way to solo without applying theory/thinking while doing it.

Don't be discouraged by all the naysayers on this group. I totally agree that if you can figure out how to do it without the conventional rules, there's a word for that: Genius.

These girls got no training at all. They followed a deeper "instruction" and now they are acknowledged by the most literate of musicians.

Do your own dots.
David

**larry "K"** · 03-19-2015, 04:21 PM

hello al; no i'm using chord scale positions to freely pick the notes at. best way to communicate with me is to send me an email from your email. or call me at 262-720-7022, or i can call you. i always like to talk to other players. larry

**KirkP** · 03-19-2015, 04:28 PM

As a lazy amateur I'm always looking for shortcuts, but any system that doesn't at least consider chord tones is likely to result in "noodley"solos. My scales & modes books are gathering dust, but arpeggios are indispensible.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-19-2015, 04:34 PM

I checked out the video...straight to the point, I'm not hearing anything that make me recommend this idea.

**GuyBoden** · 03-19-2015, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I wonder if anyone ever posts on physics chat groups about how they've figured out a way to do the math without having to read all those squiggles. The no theory approach to physics.
To me no theory equates to no understanding.

Yes, I find that you mostly get the "no theory approach" with 'arts' based subjects, because they're open to being very subjective.

As an Engineer, I've never met any "no theory approach" Engineers on projects.

**P4guitar** · 03-19-2015, 05:16 PM

I have never heard music like the Shaggs before...how did I miss this group!

**setemupjoe** · 03-19-2015, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

Yes, I find that you mostly get the "no theory approach" with 'arts' based subjects, because they're open to being very subjective.

As an Engineer, I've never met any "no theory approach" Engineers on projects.

My latest skyscraper has been built with my radical new 'no theory' approach. Enter at your own risk. Lol.

TH · 03-19-2015, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

As an Engineer, I've never met any "no theory approach" Engineers on projects.

Maybe you haven't looked long enough

Seems to have worked out here. Some tenant wanted their ceiling cleaned and they didn't have a ladder. The engineers came up with a novel solution.
THAT's thinking outside the box
David

**targuit** · 03-19-2015, 10:01 PM

Mark - I assume MI is Musicians' Institute? A question. I have always felt that if I were trying to teach serious students jazz, that I would make heavy use of notation software, essentially requiring students to use something like Sibelius. Do you guys make significant use of notation software as a core requirement?

Jay

**mr. beaumont** · 03-19-2015, 10:15 PM

Nope. Jazz is ear music. Pen and paper and a guitar/piano are just fine.

You can't learn jazz sitting at a computer. It's live organic music, the only way to really learn it is to play with others.

**docbop** · 03-20-2015, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

Mark - I assume MI is Musicians' Institute? A question. I have always felt that if I were trying to teach serious students jazz, that I would make heavy use of notation software, essentially requiring students to use something like Sibelius. Do you guys make significant use of notation software as a core requirement?

Jay

I was around MI for awhile around 2007 and no good old pencil and paper was fine. Finale and Sibelius are just tools and if I was doing a lot of arranging & composing it might be worth it. I tried using them and found them a bigger pain than used using pencil, paper, and a triangle (I took a copyist class back in the day). Plus a lot of what I do is write out lines improv lines and using something like Finale would be too distracting I want to focus on the music.

**nick1994** · 03-20-2015, 03:18 AM

Notation software is for notating, not for learning jazz

TH · 03-20-2015, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by nick1994

Notation software is for notating, not for learning jazz

Does having that knowledge make you a worse musician? Does knowing how to take care of your guitar detract from your ability to play it? Does learning piano make you a more limited guitarist? Does being able to compose or lead detract from being a good improvising sideman? How does having a useful skill in managing charts, compositions and arrangements, not to mention just the ability to commit to paper faster (you wouldn't believe how fast some of these kids can put together a lead sheet); in real time, if you have a midi keyboard, make one a lesser musician? If you were born with that information and skill, would you elect to forget and not use it? To hire a copyist instead?
It's not for learning jazz. No. But it can be helpful in learning to be a more complete musician. File under: survival skills.

I'll add an anecdotal note. There's a local guy here, sax player named Jerry Bergonzi. He plays jazz and has a regular thing in a little venue. A big part of his development and evolution as a musician and improvisor is the distribution of his pieces and contrafacts, which he hands out weekly to his band members in their own individual parts.
He was a good musician before he had that ability on Sibelius, and it's only made his having a great band easier.
David

Maybe this discussion might have its own thread? Aside from a discussion of little dots, it's a little off topic of the OP's thoughts.

TH · 03-20-2015, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Nope. Jazz is ear music. Pen and paper and a guitar/piano are just fine.

You can't learn jazz sitting at a computer. It's live organic music, the only way to really learn it is to play with others.

Are the two mutually exclusive?
David

**nick1994** · 03-20-2015, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Does having that knowledge make you a worse musician? Does knowing how to take care of your guitar detract from your ability to play it? Does learning piano make you a more limited guitarist? Does being able to compose or lead detract from being a good improvising sideman? How does having a useful skill in managing charts, compositions and arrangements, not to mention just the ability to commit to paper faster (you wouldn't believe how fast some of these kids can put together a lead sheet); in real time, if you have a midi keyboard, make one a lesser musician? If you were born with that information and skill, would you elect to forget and not use it? To hire a copyist instead?
It's not for learning jazz. No. But it can be helpful in learning to be a more complete musician. File under: survival skills.

I'll add an anecdotal note. There's a local guy here, sax player named Jerry Bergonzi. He plays jazz and has a regular thing in a little venue. A big part of his development and evolution as a musician and improvisor is the distribution of his pieces and contrafacts, which he hands out weekly to his band members in their own individual parts.
He was a good musician before he had that ability on Sibelius, and it's only made his having a great band easier.
David

Maybe this discussion might have its own thread? Aside from a discussion of little dots, it's a little off topic of the OP's thoughts.

True, using Sibelius is a skill that is useful as a musician. But it's a notation tool, it's not for learning jazz. I don't see why someone would rely on it to teach jazz. That was my point. I didn't say it was a useless skill. I'm a huge Sibelius user, but I write up charts on it or arrangements. But hey, if he can teach people using so be it, I just don't see the connection between Sibelius and learning jazz.

**Jonah** · 03-20-2015, 06:02 AM

there are 4 places on the guitar neck where you can solo in any major key including it's relative minor

Never could get such approaches... sounds like someone forced you into guitar-playing and you try to find a way how to make this terrible toil easier..

is it not more simple and more fun to really invetigate and master the instrument istead of inventing tricks to avoid it?

plus three local amateur girls

really could be an advantage of this method

**pushkar000** · 03-20-2015, 06:50 AM

Yeah Jerry's thing is good(obviously because its worked for him and he's a monster).

I write out tunes every week and print it out and hand it to my buddies which started a "mini-game" where we write tunes or contrefacts each time and play them. I'm not Jerry but just want to add that its a great exercise.

All the best Larry with your approach - sorry I'm not really contributing to your thread!

TH · 03-20-2015, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by nick1994

True, using Sibelius is a skill that is useful as a musician. But it's a notation tool, it's not for learning jazz. I don't see why someone would rely on it to teach jazz. That was my point..

Ah yes. As a supplementary skill vs a primary approach. Yeah, you're right. I was thinking Targuit's question was whether it was important to teach students of jazz, not whether it was important to teach students for jazz. Yup. Gotcha
David

**mr. beaumont** · 03-20-2015, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Are the two mutually exclusive?
David

Not really, no. I'm just approaching this from the standpoint of learning jazz...it seems to me the real benefits of notation Software comes once you can already play. Bit I'm old school...i don't like slow down software either.

TH · 03-20-2015, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Not really, no. I'm just approaching this from the standpoint of learning jazz...it seems to me the real benefits of notation Software comes once you can already play. Bit I'm old school...i don't like slow down software either.

I not only have students learn to hear in real time, but I strongly recommend they hone their listening skills seeing live music. I'm with you there. I'm with you here on both points. Targuit, was your original question about primary acquisition skills or about whether it had a place in institutions of higher learning? It seems there may be several answers depending on the point of the question, and maybe this derail deserves its own thread?

Mr. B, what do you think about using writing as a tool on the primary level? When I was teaching younger kids, I had a white board and it was a game of make/sing a tune that the students did collectively, like refrigerator poetry. It reenforced the visual/aural/creative aspects of music and as a game, they learned from one another...and they learned to improvise. I think visual notation does have a place in the foundations of jazz education.
As one option anyway...there is no gospel, just the clumsy efforts of inspired teachers.
David