Jazz Guitar Soloing Without Music Theory

[Jonah]

Theory is of little use if you cannot execute in practice.

Don't tell musicologists about it

[Vladan]

The Shaggs are KILLIN'!!! No kidding.

[Guitarzen]

Larry, I listened to your recording and I don't want to be mean, but I could barely stand listening to it for more than a minute. If your completely happy with your playing as it is, that is fine, keep doing it for your own enjoyment. But some of us have higher standards and aspirations. I have no problem with people playing music as a hobby, and if all you want to do is learn 3 chord songs, that is fine. Your playing actually reminds me of my own playing....20 years ago. I'd prefer to keep the 20 years worth theory knowledge that I have gained since then. My playing is actually much better now because of it. Having said that, there have been great players in the past that knew little to no theory (and even greater players that knew their theory). But those are rare individuals. And for most of us we can't achieve anywhere near that level of playing unless we learn all the theory. And even then, perhaps we won't match those legendary players. No serious musician can take your advice seriously.

[grahambop]

The Shaggs are KILLIN'!!! No kidding.

Yeah, they fall into the 'so bad it's good' category. Also kind of surreal.

[edh]

Shaggs???

[Hep To The Jive]

Did anybody call Larry? He's got quiet...

[TH]

Yeah, they fall into the 'so bad it's good' category. Also kind of surreal.

Yeah, I never really got them until I transcribed all their works, learned them note for note and could really appreciate the melodic, rhythmic and harmonic intricacies of their works.
But seriously, I think they are so boldly original and they did NOT let anyone else's music get in their way.
The more tedious people's worshipping, copying, assuming other people's musical identities, cloning sounds of other players gets, the fresher the Shaggs sound.

When Mick was playing in Jack DeJohnette's Special Edition, he got to rehearsal at Jack's house. Jack was listening to The Shaggs. "Listen to that..." he said...
Jack then took the recording to the rehearsal. "I have this idea about the next project." and he put the recording on. The guys didn't know what to make of it but they couldn't afford to laugh; Jack looked serious.
It was only when he watched them trying their hardest not to laugh that he broke down.
Everyone knows about The Shaggs. When people trying to sound "good" begin to sound bad, Shaggs are untouchable.

David

[Vladan]

In addition to what's already mentioned by all participating in The Shaggs sub thread, I found there are moments of unbelievably precise polyrhythmics and harmony, surely complex if not too rich, between vocals and instruments, when I succeed in listening so lose enough not to have musical expectations. It can be scary.

[TH]

In addition to what's already mentioned by all participating in The Shaggs sub thread, I found there are moments of unbelievably precise polyrhythmics and harmony, surely complex if not too rich, between vocals and instruments, when I succeed in listening so lose enough not to have musical expectations. It can be scary.

It's conversational and musical in a way that structure, as we know it, can't really accommodate. Sometimes it's more conversationally musical than can be heard by musicians prejudiced by structure in some form. The same was said of Monk and Ornette.
But getting back to the reference of the original thread, if you have a way of making music that's your own, then something supplants convention. If you have a way of making music that is just easier, then you can't expect to interact with the musicians who live and create by that rule set.
Shaggs, Monk and Ornette played what they did and it was natural for them. But it wasn't born from some scheme to make it easy.
David

[docbop]

Don't tell musicologists about it

Musicians create and Musicologists document for others to learn and reuse from. So all part of the food chain.

[Jonah]

Musicians create and Musicologists document for others to learn and reuse from. So all part of the food chain.

Ideally yes... but alas!


By the way historically there were theories of music in itself were self-sufficient and often did not reflect practice almost at all.

[Vladan]

They're cool, but I'd choose The Cramps for R'n'R, thou they worked on style.

For "originals", there's this compilaation "Songs The Cramps thaught us", it is a well of gold, the real originals of what we tought were originals and more ...

[Reg]

... wow, Maybe you all should post some actual playing... maybe the practical standards thread... no theory needed.

[TH]

... wow, Maybe you all should post some actual playing... maybe the practical standards thread... no theory needed.

"No theory" required. If we recognize an identifiable phrase or a diatonic stretch for more than a bar, or the time has some conscious variation to it, you're out. Practical sub-standards we could call it.

David

[christianm77]

Is there anyone here who actually plays with no theory (apart from the OP allegedly?)?

It's all a bit of non starter, I suspect, because we all know a bit of theory even if we later go 'ooh theory sux!!!!!'

Personally I like the idea of it not being necessary to play jazz, but if I'm to be honest, I wouldn't actually know. There's no way of avoiding it because there seems to be more jazz education and books out there then actual playing half of the time. The way the world is now.....

[docbop]

Is there anyone here who actually plays with no theory (apart from the OP allegedly?)?

It's all a bit of non starter, I suspect, because we all know a bit of theory even if we later go 'ooh theory sux!!!!!'

Personally I like the idea of it not being necessary to play jazz, but if I'm to be honest, I wouldn't actually know. There's no way of avoiding it because there seems to be more jazz education and books out there then actual playing half of the time. The way the world is now.....

There are ear players on all instruments who don't know Theory has we refer to it, or only know basics. But to being Jazz musician you have too know constructs and relationship even if you create your own names for them. They hear something pitch collection and we might call it Dorian they might call it Carlos. End the end theory is a organization tool and a form of communication. No one escapes having to learn these fundamental, just some prefer self discovery and naming things.

I hear that ear player gets in all sorts of trouble when start calling his wife by a different name in bed.

[christianm77]

TBH - I think the whole theory/no theory discussion may be missing the point.

I think the important thing is to have a tradition - Monk for example was a consummate stride pianist - and it may well be that in studying a particular tradition you may well find yourself learning some sort of theory. Or not...

The important thing is you need a place to stand.

[destinytot]

I'm all for autonomous learning and self-education, but... content matters.

[pkirk]

Is there anyone here who actually plays with no theory (apart from the OP allegedly?)?

I played a few times with this guitar player:

he didn't know any names of any notes or chords or scales (I taught him a tune by showing him a sequence of grips) and as far as I could tell, he became a great jazz player just by learning tunes and solos off recordings. But he's a great player, has a great feel, plays great with a pick and with his thumb, and can sound just like wes at times. In this clip you can hear a bit of his Martino thing too.

[christianm77]

I played a few times with this guitar player:

he didn't know any names of any notes or chords or scales (I taught him a tune by showing him a sequence of grips) and as far as I could tell, he became a great jazz player just by learning tunes and solos off recordings. But he's a great player, has a great feel, plays great with a pick and with his thumb, and can sound just like wes at times. In this clip you can hear a bit of his Martino thing too.

Learning jazz by by listening to it and working it out? What madness ;-)

A lot of the gypsy players are the same.

[jtizzle]

There are ear players on all instruments who don't know Theory has we refer to it, or only know basics. But to being Jazz musician you have too know constructs and relationship even if you create your own names for them. They hear something pitch collection and we might call it Dorian they might call it Carlos. End the end theory is a organization tool and a form of communication. No one escapes having to learn these fundamental, just some prefer self discovery and naming things.

I hear that ear player gets in all sorts of trouble when start calling his wife by a different name in bed.

What a coincidence that you're talking about this, because I was just practicing my Carlos scales today.

[TH]

There are ear players on all instruments who don't know Theory has we refer to it, or only know basics. But to be a Jazz musician you have too know constructs and relationship even if you create your own names for them. They hear something pitch collection and we might call it Dorian they might call it Carlos. End the end theory is a organization tool and a form of communication. No one escapes having to learn these fundamental, just some prefer self discovery and naming things.

Sco played with Michael Brecker. They played together at the most advanced level, yet John told me Brecker didn't know any of the scales by name. But he had the sounds, the nuances, the intimate character of each chord scale down cold. He had learned them all by sound and built his own sound organically from actually working with them. It was like working with a crew day in and day out, and one day someone says "That guy you work with, do you know who he is?" and you may not have the name everyone else knows him as, but you sure as hell know how he works, what he can do and how well you can work together. The job is more important than the name, but not everyone takes the same path Michael Brecker did.
I imagined that his knowledge would have allowed him to teach master classes at any school, yet his idiosyncratic relationship with the rules may have precluded him from graduating those same places as a student. That's putting the theory exactly where it needs to be.
David

[mr. beaumont]

There really is no reason you need to know the names...it comes down to whatever helps you organize sounds.

I suffer from CRS so i just started seeing chords abd scales as the same thing--pools of notes. It's effective enough for me that I can tell someone who really practiced it and was technically competent wouldn't need much else.

Me? I should keep studying

[Jonah]

There are ear players on all instruments who don't know Theory has we refer to it, or only know basics. But to being Jazz musician you have too know constructs and relationship even if you create your own names for them. They hear something pitch collection and we might call it Dorian they might call it Carlos. End the end theory is a organization tool and a form of communication. No one escapes having to learn these fundamental, just some prefer self discovery and naming things.

I hear that ear player gets in all sorts of trouble when start calling his wife by a different name in bed

They get into trouble only if there is another player in bed... if not I am sure their wives are ok with being called Carlos.. considering Dorian is not that good for wives too

[grahambop]

They get into trouble only if there is another player in bed... if not I am sure their wives are ok with being called Carlos..

Would that be Walter Carlos or Wendy Carlos? names can be so confusing...