Avoid notes

[docbop]

So the term Avoid notes gets used a lot and some will will correct saying should be special handling notes. New improvisors see the term and over react and think playing an avoid note they will be arrested by the Jazz Police and thrown on death row. Well I've been reading some material lately that defined avoid notes that I think is pretty good. One source was something out of a Berklee harmony book the other an interview.

The Berklee made a distinction between avoid notes in harmony vs. melody. That an avoid note when used in a chord/harmony destabilizes the chord. Use that same note in a melody it will work as part of a line.

Which brings in the second description I read this was only avoid notes in lines. That the reason a note is a avoid note is because it's a note that want to be resolved. Other notes you can sit on and sound at rest, but a avoid note has a pull to it and wants to be resolved, moved off of.

So for simplistiy sake I think those descriptions help to understand the basics of avoid notes.

[nick1994]

doesn't the term avoid note come from Levine's jazz piano book? in any case, it's ridiculous to tell someone to avoid a certain note over a chord. if they avoid those notes they'll never learn how to incorporate dissonance into their playing. It all has to do with intention and you can only intend to play those dissonant notes if you're used to what they sound like and the only way to get used to those sounds is by practicing playing them over chords.

[whiskey02]

I believe a more correct description is "caution notes" rather than "avoid". You can play just about anything, the success or failure depends on what is played before and after those "caution" notes.

[Jonah]

The Berklee made a distinction between avoid notes in harmony vs. melody. That an avoid note when used in a chord/harmony destabilizes the chord. Use that same note in a melody it will work as part of a line

And line of the melody in most cases is the part of harmony....


IMHO idea of 'avoid notes' can be accepted only as a 'beginner's audial method' - it is like learning to play classical harmony, I will say: play this and this, avoid this... and work over it for a month untill your ears and hands learn it. Then try to play what was forbidden and you'll see how to handle it...

the problem is that many players take intitial recomendations like final rules... 'I was told not to play it, I will not play it ever.' But this is just to get used to the model... and model is a skeleton, not body and soul yet.

I would partly blame it on status of theory in jazz: in classical music theory is a tool to explain audial experience.
In jazz though the word is the same it is a tool to approach spontaneous composition.

That is where 'Levine vs. Rawlins' topic come from... the word is the same, but meanings are different.

Levine's theory setup suddenly seemed to me somehow more adequate to the aesthetic concept of jazz... probably this what theory of jazz could be... a bit messy, a bit unclear, sometimes too naive, sometimes too challenging...

And Rawlins -though I agree with his arguments - is more like a look from outside.

[TH]

Children need some kind of guidelines before they can make decisions for themselves. But sometimes they take these as ways to live their lives, and become obstacles to living an imaginative adult life.
Musicians need some kind of starting point to take noise and make it into sound. But sometimes this sound can be so specific that the language is characteristic, hard to break out of and doesn't allow for innovation.

I kind of see a sense of consonance/dissonance as a composer's masterpiece: it says I understand the rules and this is who I will become, these are my rules; I am the master of my sound. So things like avoid notes, while useful in defining intervals like a minor second or minor ninth as implying compelling movement, can preclude the perception of those intervals as goals within themselves. Monk is still considered "out" by those who play by the rules. Guitarists can be a rule driven lot. I don't see a whole lot of players who have embraced Monk's master book.

I think what you choose to avoid is something that comes from the ability to hear and know what you need to express yourself. If you choose to avoid certain sounds, never explore their potential in a different context, that's the tradition. Whether you let that rule your creativity, that's your personality, your decision. If you can write your own book, you author your own logic and if you play with conviction, that's music.

The dangerous thing about institutionalized rulebooks and jazz, is jazz is always growing. At some time the harmonic language and "sound" of a school may become a parody of an era in which it was created. The question is, who will stand up and say the children of today live in a different world? That's the thing I wonder about.

David

[matt.guitarteacher]

Interesting conversation. It's really like chord tones on strong beats or parts of beats. In real practice, harmonic and melodic rhythms change, and "the beat" or "strong beat" can be elsewhere, but that conversation may not be helpful for someone trying to learn basic concepts of playing the melody against harmony . It's simpler and more helpful to learn "the rules" for playing eighth notes with consideration for "strong beats" or avoid notes etc.

But they're more like PRACTICES for learning (how to hear and play over harmony) than actual rules...

[bako]

Hypothetical:

A massive C major chord is played on the worlds largest pipe organ 1 3 5 8 in 7 octaves with eternal sustain.

It is true that within this scenario that a sustained F note sounds like something I would avoid.
Still, I wouldn't hesitate to play a F note in passing on this gig.

This hypothetical doesn't reflect anything that has occurred in my musical life.
Rhythm sections state harmonies with varying degrees of space and pitch fluidity.

An F in a C major context is Csus. It can also imply I IV I or I IIm or I V7 I or I bII I etc.

Manifesto:

Avoid no note. That which is avoided remains unknown.
Learn and explore all intervals within major, minor, dominant and all points in between.
Use all that serves the musical pursuit.

[mr. beaumont]

Levine also says that perhaps "handle with care" notes is a better term.

There are no avoid notes, really, but there sure as heck is weak places to "hang." For example, go to your local blues jam and listen to the hacks hang on the m3 over the I chord...

[Takemitsu]

If you play a tune with a tonal story ...

(are we in...ok we are in x but wait... is that a tension? Yes!! More and more tension, my God its unbearable, please...Oh cadenza! Wonderful now I can smoke my cigarette)

You don't want to screw too much your harmonic progression. Avoid notes screw the progression (make it unclear) therefore screw your skit. Its fine to use them as long as you don't sell the punchline before the end and wreck the story. (Unless its your goal...yes, its art too)

PS: Hans got a unreal haircut!

[Reg]

Man it's just a term from a set of learning guidelines....does anyone actually understand what the avoid notes are and where they come from and why their called so.

OK... you have 30 min. a chart to arrange for 4 horns and rhythm section... and you have 5 or 6 to finish for gig that night, or whatever.. how would you voice the horns.

Your playing the charts later that night... what notes would you choose to avoid when comping during the arrangements.

Generally any great players can make anything sound great.... and most average players can make anything sound lousy, and if they use avoid notes, they can really sound lousy.

[docbop]

After working in a music school and for a couple years I was the one who sat next to the arranging teacher recording student charts I learn one thing from hear the teacher constantly saying "pencils up" to the band. Minor 2nds are train wrecks! <grin> Common error for some even after months of writing charts they'd write a minor 2nd between instruments without realizing it.

[KirkP]

"Avoid notes" is an unfortunate term. "Caution notes" seems better, but both terms are prescriptive (implying some action you must take with them). I think a descriptive term is better. Why not just call them "Dissonant"? Then demonstrate for the student the various ways dissonance can be used and abused in different situations.

[Reg]

Call them whatever you choose... the point is there are very physical reasons they're called what they are, or have a dissonant sound.... and depending on how their used melodically and harmonically and in what context... has organizational relationships.

Somewhat like walking on thin ice... if your unaware of why the ice will break, generally you stay away. Sorry maybe not the best analogy. But sounding lousy is not that subjective, generally.

Generally Avoid note has harmonic implications, avoided because they destabilize the sound of the implied chord.

Different harmonic systems would or could have different avoid notes, as Doc posted, generally relates to how notes are voiced... the use of min 2nds is always tricky, or should I say Clamy.

But if you were composing or arranging in a modal style with 2nds and 4th to help camouflage progressions from having a functional harmonic sound... the avoid note(s) could change.

[christianm77]

Yeah, that's a good a definition as I've seen.

I'd think you could avoid the term if you taught the harmony melody connection in a different way (e.g. start with chord tones and neighbour tones and move onto extensions with the same logic), but it might be a useful concept for some students.

[Reg]

Thanks christian... Yea, terms always seem to be after the fact. But generally the term is used by composers and arrangers etc... There are specific voicing techniques when arranging in a jazz style. To create different sounds and styles, specific voicings for specific styles. Avoid notes have a few choices for voicing... different harmonic or melodic choices.

When you write for Big Band or other large ensembles... there are pretty standard styles of voicing and arranging which imply different jazz big bands. When you voice melodies or counter melodies etc... there are standard approaches for different notes on top... chord tones, extensions.... and avoid notes. Their different for maj/min as compared to pulling from Melodic Min. etc... or even symmetrical scales.

Jazz arrangers use larger and more complex note collections to start from.

Most students don't really have a clue how to arrange in different styles.

But the term has worked it's way down to improv approaches etc...

[christianm77]

I'm not a trained arranger, so I'll take your word for it - it's something I'd be interested in looking into, but I have some other projects at the moment :-)

In terms of improv, if you solo modally over one static chord, then I can see avoid notes would certainly be relevant.

I've always felt, like many others, that the Lydian and Dorian mode are inherently more stable than Major and Minor over static major and minor seventh type chords for instance, but that also means they lack dynamism to an extent. The same could be said of Melodic Minor compared to Harmonic Minor.

I'm not sure if that's the Berklee way (and I don't really care ATM), but it's the way I've always understood it aurally. 4 on major or b6 on minor are tension notes even though they belong to the diatonic scale. Mozart's melodies hinge on this fact, for example.

[docbop]

I think if you boil it down to simplest terms if the "special handling" is not being sit on you're fine. If you pausing on it as in harmony then it can destabilize the harmony.

I like Bergonzi's "special handling" and Berklee's "destabilize" terms.

My main idea was try to find a simple way to convey what these notes are for rookie improvisers.

[Reg]

That's somewhat the catch 22 of the term... not really created for improv. But I guess one could incorporate into.

The trick would being able to understand the context... same set of notes, Tonic Maj and relative Tonic Min... generally the V chord changes avoid note.

With MM there are only a few... and when your trying to imply modal harmony... there are no avoid notes.

And generally one can voice any note and make it work... much like when playing piano voicings.

I still like the idea... but before one could even become aware of what avoid notes are.... there would be a lot of education needed before etc...

[christianm77]

Having a chord melody play through Stella today which reminded me is a good example of a melody with natural fourths rhythmically accented over major chords and resolved on a weak beat (an appogiatura) - might that be useful as an example for this type of discussion?

My take on it all FWIW:

Mike Longo is one of the few jazz educators I have read who uses the classical terms appogiatura, suspension, escape tone, passing tone etcetera to describe the construction of melodic lines in jazz. It works great. I see no reason not to use this venerable and clear terminology in jazz when discussing improvisation on chords - even non functional progressions. These are all ways of decorating chord tones.

In general, neighbour tones can be selected from the prevailing key by ear. This will often be diatonic although often chromatic for lower neighbours, or uppers when required, although this can change for progressions with a less settled quality - a Rhythm bridge for example.

So far, exactly what we hear in common practice music.

In this sense the 4th, for example, can be understood as a neighbour tone. In terms of harmony within the seventh, #11 would actually be #4, most often a lower chromatic neighbour of the 5th.

When this is understood, we introduce superpositions/extensions of harmony, (i.e. for the more 'jazz' elements of harmony) for example:

Over Dm7 G7 C, we can play Fmaj7 Fm6 Em7 or Am7 Abminmaj7 Am7, etc. We can understand these subs as rules of thumb, by ear from transcriptions (my favourite) or manifestations of some sort of scale theory (Aebersold/Berklee, Barry Harris, whatever you like.) Steve Coleman calls this stuff 'invisible paths', which I like.

(This is all very similar to Mike Longo's 'Harmonic Melody' book BTW, but I came to this understanding independently.)

We can invoke the stability of the #11 on the major chord (something which follows naturally from acoustics - just give me 5 minutes and an acoustic piano (not electric) :-))

We might also come to understand the pentatonic notes (1 2 3 5 6 on major) as notes we can 'sit on' on chords. And obviously there are the blues ornaments and scale.

That's how I understand it and how I teach. I don't see my understanding as terribly unusual or 'out there.' The term 'avoid note' doesn't seem relevant here to me, seems a bit quaint, and IMHO a result of retrofitting the modal system onto something that was never modal.

If as Reg says, in modal music there are no avoid notes (depends how we are constructing the underlying harmony, but yeeeees) then let's just ditch it except for its arrangement meaning.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a screed there. Always helpful to write things down. I'm quite pleased I could sum it up on a page, though I've probably forgotten something. It's not rocket science in any case.

TL;DR not really into the term 'avoid note' and don't see the point of it.

[christianm77]

The trick would being able to understand the context... same set of notes, Tonic Maj and relative Tonic Min... generally the V chord changes avoid note.

Well fancy that :-) Of course it does, as does chord ii, IV or viio! The 4 is one of the notes that makes tonal harmony go. It's the engine!

Given the other note is the major 7th and 20th century musicians have repurposed that from being a leading note only to being an extension of the major triad, as well as the 2nd and 6th degrees, and that leaves the 4th as the only dynamic note in the major scale. It has tremendous importance to us.

I think that's really shown in how the modal system naturally and gradually evolved into the tonal system as people wrote polyphony - people could hear the structural importance of the 4 and 7.

(That said early polyphony uses accidentals to get Lydian cadences in every key, e.g C#m/E --> D5 in the Dorian mode, so they liked the sound of the #4 -> 5 and 7 -> 8, probably because to them the third was an dissonance due to the influence of Ancient Greek music theory.)

Most of this development is closely linked to temperament:
Medieval - pythagorean intonation - well tuned fifths, complex thirds. Music that emphasises fifths. Machaut, Perotin.

Rennaisance through to Early Romantic (arguably Late) - mean tone and well temperaments - well tuned thirds, sevenths quite flat by modern standards. Extensions would probably be out of tune and harsh sounding. Common Practice harmony.

Modern - equal temperament. Fifths quite well tuned. Thirds are out, but after 500 years of thirdy music, we are used to hearing them anyway. Sevenths blend well into thirds, b7's into b3's. What do we get? Ravel, Debussy, Bill Evans. Also Schoenberg...

[Reg]

I think you need to do some arranging in a jazz style, copy some of the standard big band arrangers... You might get the point... I won't even get into the modal concept... it's obviously not real. I would still dig hearing you play something in a few jazz styles...

[christianm77]

I think you need to do some arranging in a jazz style, copy some of the standard big band arrangers... You might get the point...

That's a considerable investment of time in order to understand a point made on an internet forum. Needless to say I bow to your knowledge on this... ;-)

In terms of time - if I was a student at a music college I would have the opportunity to arrange for a large group. In my current circumstances it would be a hobby with little expectation of any of my charts getting played. I have enough trouble getting a small band to play through my charts. Everyone is super busy.

I like listening to big band music though up to and including Gil Evans, although I have yet to explore more contemporary writing - Maria Schnieder etc. Not terribly into Kenny Wheeler's work in this area TBH - I like his small band stuff.

TBH I think we are talking past one another. My main focus of interest is not contemporary jazz harmony. I've had my head stuck in bop and swing for five years. My other interests are outside of jazz, although I listen to contemporary bits and pieces, I'm not really a jazz head like some out there.

That said, I've messed around with some intervallic cluster (Vic Juris type) stuff on the guitar, which is of course, incredibly easy on piano, or if you are arranging :-)

[christianm77]

Reg, I'm not sure if I fully understood what you are saying which is a shame, because it sounds interesting :-)

Is this info relevant regarding what you are talking about, for example?
Avoid note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If so I kind of get what you mean, and it does make sense. I can see how it would be relevant for Kenny Wheeler type harmony for example, and for extending standard ii-V-I's and so on.

[christianm77]

The fourth over the G7 chord is something that gets played a lot. At least until people started teaching that it was wrong.

[Reg]

Yes Christian... but Barrie is using term with reference to Theory. His harmony books came out years after the term had been used as arranging term. I'm fairly sure all the terms get used together when trying to break music into different classes and keep the terminology somewhat all tied together for teaching.

But the article does say in it's opening....
In jazz theory, an avoid note is a scale degree considered especially dissonant relative to the harmony implied by the root chord, and is thus better avoided.

The avoid note is a scale degree relative to the harmony. It's not like the note is bad, just difficult to use in harmonic contexts.

And it's still just a general suggestion, somewhat common practice especially when used randomly or casually.

If you were to take all 7 notes at any given tonal moment... and create a rating system of which what note would be easiest to voice or use and which note would be the most difficult... the avoid note generally is the most difficult note to work with.

And down the line... once one develops methods that work with each note... there are no avoid notes. But when learning jazz common practice etc... there are also lousy voicings and applications of almost any note.