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If your conventional aesthetics are based on Bavarian oompah music, I entirely agree. :-)
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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12-07-2017 01:55 PM
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But, joking aside, terminology is inexact.
The term avoid note, flawed though it is, defines a quality of intolerable non-harmonic dissonance that must be resolved on an isolated chord, such as 4 on maj7 or a b6 on a min7.
In fact, such dissonances are the very thing that make Western harmony function.
But the use of the unresolved 4th on a dominant chords is so widespread in recorded jazz, that it would seem to me that you are dealing with something fundamentally different.
Perhaps where my conception differs from some other people's is that I do not really see the dominant function (by which I mean V7 as opposed to a major-minor 7th sonority used in say, a blues) as being separate from the I chord. It is an extension of it, and it's function is to resolve. How strong you make that resolution is up to you and involves the different notes of the diatonic and chromatic spectrum in various organisations.
In practice you can see examples of every resolution under the sun being played into the tonic chord, but there are some obvious common tropes such as viiio7-I, IV-I, IV-IVm-I, bII7-I, bVII7-I, VII7-I, and so on.
Anyway, I digress.... I think that the important thing is that you know you these resolutions sound, and have the ability to set up and resolve lines with a rhythmic and melodically interesting (swinging) way...
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When you play rootless inversions with extensions and alterations, the particular root octave that separates the chord tones from the extensions becomes potentially shifty with context and interpretation, including other instruments in the evaluation.
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I kind of think that’s almost the definition of chord scale use in it’s modern sense.
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I am learning chord theory and it says an aviod note is half note above the chord notes. So in Cmaj7 the 11th is a half note above the 3th thus needed to be avoid(so no Cmaj11). Than why we got chord like D7b9? The b9 is just half note above the root,right? I am confused.
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They're two different things. The b9 is an altered tone in D7b9 and it's relationship is to the root.
The problem with playing F over CMaj7 and holding it, is that it creates a dissonance that sounds bad because of it's relationship to the 3rd and the 7th. It creates a minor 2nd/flat 9 with the 3rd and a flat 5/tritone with the 7th. You just shouldn't hold it too long, Resolve it down a half step to E or up a whole step to G.
Don't get too caught up in this. I much prefer Johnny Pac's "Handle With Care Note" than the term "Avoid."
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"Avoid" notes are a set of notes that are explained in a way so beginners don't use them out of context. A problem with music education is all the rules imposed on beginners but later not explained that breaking them is not incorrect.
C Major has an avoid note of F Major. For beginners it is recommended to stick to the C Major scale when playing over C. As paynow said, it does create a dissonance between the third, an important chord tone, with the 4th, an "unimportant" note of the scale, and the 7th. It not only makes a minor second, but also a tritone. A nice remedy for this is using the #11 scale degree, or F# rather than F, in the key of C major. This will also produce a tritone (r - #11) and a minor second (#11 - 5th). The difference being that the dissonances do not occur between (important) chord tones, whereas using a natural F does produce chord tone dissonances (3rd - 4th and 4th - 7th).
There are a lot of dissonances in the C major scale and chord, which are also minor seconds. A good example is the 7th and the root, which makes a minor second. However, the 7th is considered an important chord tone, pretty much the second most important note in the C Major chord. It is honestly one of my favorite sounds in the major scale.
Dominant 7 chords have different rules. Sure, there are "avoid" notes, but there are many options to get out of these, things you probably won't understand just yet but I'll gladly explain if you wish to know.
My thing with "avoid" notes, is that they're not really even "handle with care" notes, but more like "learn how to use them". You can really use any note you wish, you just need to be able to explain it, and play it in a way that makes sense. For example, you could use an Eb in a C Major chord, and an easy explanation could be for chromatic voice leading into the E, the 3rd.
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Exactly, and the b9 in the chord: Originally Posted by Balalaika
a) tells the chord players, guitarists, pianists, etc., that they may include that Eb, and
b) tells the soloist that it will be all right to play that note, even accent it or hold it. In other words, it says "Eb is not an avoid note here, because it's a chord tone."
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I wonder if maybe the wording in general ought to be "avoid situations" rather than "avoid notes".
Metheny for one is always talking about how he finds use for all 12 notes in a song, but there are places where some notes don't work.
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In a way, yes. There are no rules, but you have to know when to use the choices.
First of all, you have the mixolydian scale, fifth mode of the major scale. It's all the natural notes in the dominant scale. This is obviously the consonant choice. No real "avoid" notes other than the 4th, which some may argue is not an avoid note as it doesn't produce a tritone between the 7th. I don't consider it an "avoid" note, personally.
Then you have the Bebop scale, which is just a regular major or mixolydian scale but with both 7th scale degrees (the b7 and the natural 7). If you have a G7, then you would include both F and F#. This is for voice leading purposes mainly. Some people consider this a really important scale, and some don't.
Then this is when it gets to the complicated stuff.
When you have a 7b9 chord, it is a direct pointer to the symmetrical diminished (whole-half) scale. The reason for this, is that a rootless 7b9 chord is equivalent to a diminished chord. For example, a G7b9 would have G B D F Ab. Exclude the G, and it's a diminished chord. The symmetrical diminished scale would start half-whole from the root, but the most common way you'll see people talk about it is in whole-half form. This is because a diminished chord can be moved up in minor thirds, and it will still give the same chord (try it yourself with the G7b9 example, you might get some enharmonic notes, but the sound will be the same). So due to this, the scale itself can be moved in minor thirds as well, and you'll get the same notes regardless of moving it. This, in turn, means that there are technically only 3 different diminished scales (sets of notes, as opposed to 12 in the regular scales such as major, minor, ect).
Similar to the above, whenever you see 7#5 (such as in bar 17 of Stella By Starlight), it is pointing directly to a whole-tone scale. If you have a C whole tone scale (C D E F# G# Bb), and build a chord out of it, it can spell a 7#5 chord (C E G# Bb) and it also has a 9 and a #11 (D F#). I like this scale a lot because of the same reason as the diminished. There are only two separate note pools for this scale, so there are technically only two whole tone scales. As I mentioned Stella at the 17th bar, this is my favorite scale to use over that section. Whole tone scales are cool cause you can move everything in whole steps (say, just an augmented arpeggio) and it sounds really hip and out.
Another completely different choice of notes that you could get for chords (not only dominant) come from the melodic minor scale. The melodic minor is one of the more popular scales to use when improvising over any regular chord nowadays, since it has some nice alterations. Since I mentioned a #11 in explaining the whole tone stuff, then I'll explain the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale, the Lydian dominant or lydian b7.
Lydian b7 is basically a lydian scale with a b7 or a mixolydian scale with a #11, whichever way you prefer to describe it. It's mainly used over non-functional dominant chords, or basically, dominant chords which don't lead to it's respective I chord. An example of this is in bar 7 of Cherokee, the Ab7 chord which leads to Bbmaj.
Then finally, you have the superlocrian scale (altered scale). It's the 7th mode of the melodic minor, and it has every single alteration included in a dominant chord. This one is mainly used to resolve to minor I chords, however, it's perfectly acceptable to use leading to major I chords. You will also see chords as 7alt, which means altered. The scale includes the b9, #9, #11, and b13 (or #5). It does not include the natural extensions.
The altered and lydian b7 scales are interchangeable in the same way tritone substitutions are interchangeable. If you have a chord that's supposed to be lydian dominant, and tritone sub it, then you're supposed to tritone sub the scale as well, meaning, if you tritone sub G7 to C#7, then the scale would turn from G Lydian Dominant to C# Superlocrian.
Also due to the similarities between the whole tone and the diminished scale, and the altered scale, they are also perfectly interchangeable at any time. So if something is altered, you can also use whole tone or diminished scales.
The melodic minor scale allows you to use various alterations to other types of scales, including the lydian augmented major scale (third mode) which allows you to use #11 and #5 (a really cool sound) over major scales. Look into it, it's really cool.
And someone please correct me if there's a mistake in any of this
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I do not think i can add a great deal to any of the great advice already given here.However i will pass on something i was told when i first started out.I too was always asking more experienced players things like can you play this note over this chord etc.Until one day a really experienced player just said try it and see what your ears tell you,if it sounds right it is right,no matter what some theory book tells you.I too hate that term avoid note,theory only goes so far in explaining music,the ears should be the final authority.
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+1. I had a teacher who told me "play everything over every chord and see what your ear tells you." That was an actual exercise he'd have you do. Monk played a lot of dissonance that would be considered "wrong" and look where he ended up:
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It is all about articulation understanding strong and weak beats and what note to put where. Any note works on weak beats.
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In a laboratory universe, the chord symbol is a sound that is sustained eternally
and every notes harmonic truth is evaluated as if it were a whole note.
Back out on the street, chords and melody find there own rhythmic space to coexist in.
There is a life beyond the chord symbol, music is about movements through varying levels of consonance and dissonance.
Learn all the sounds. Listen intensely and avoid nothing that sounds good to you.
Improvisation is risky business, accidents will happen but we will survive them to play another day.
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It is really not very helpful to a confused beginner to stress that avoid notes don't actually have to be avoided. And I also consider it a mistake to say, "There is no such thing as a wrong note," or "If it sounds right, it is right." Beginners haven't developed aural sensitivity yet, you can't leave it all up to them. Avoid notes are strong dissonances, you need to be at least a competent player to use them in an avoid situation, accented or held. If a beginner tries it, it will not just sound wrong (though not necessarily to him), it will be wrong. Monk is something else.
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It is facinating to see so many guys come to give me a hand. I really appreciate. I was gonna to reply u earier but later I found it takes time to understand what u said. So correct me if it is wrong. Chords like 7b9 79# work becasue there are certain scales behind them, like melodic minor or symmetrical diminished. So whenever I found a chord that is built from a scale, it means it is ok. i.e, m9 can work cause it is built upon the 2th mode of major scale.
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People get to hung up on scales as Jerry Bergonzi says... Knowing the right scale only gets you in the ballpark, but your still not on base. You have to understand the key notes of the chords and what beat to put them on. Then color tones and if you want to use them. Then in bigger scheme of things voice leading from one chord to next. Scales give you a pool of notes to select from, the chord defines the important notes from that scale to target. Then you want to play those important notes on strong beats and can play pretty much what you want on weak beats. All this you learn with seat time in the woodshed. Make a practice track and start experimenting with scale du jour and listening to each note and finding what articulation is necessary to use each note in the scale. You have to learn the sound and feel of each note in the scale and how to articulate them. As your ears mature notes you might "avoid" now, might become your favorite sound as you learn how to use it.
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One of the interesting things about guitar players is that we tend to over focus on the harmonic aspect of improvisation. What mode? What scale to use? How to use arpeggios etc. But IMO learning how to swing, how to phrase and what notes to leave out are more important to address the "how to play jazz" question.
I belong to Jimmy Bruno's site and one thing I hear from a good number of the students there is not incorrect notes, but absolutely no swing whatsoever. As a result the playing sounds stilted and mechanical.
The swing thing comes from hours and hours of listening. There are many threads here documenting practice methods, what do you spend your time on? etc. What should be a part of every practice session is directed listening, not just listening to jazz for the joy of it, but listening with the purpose of learning phrasing, time and swing. This is also where transcribing works very well. When you can take a master's solo and write it out, learn it, not just the notes, fingering and other mechanical aspects, but when you can record yourself playing a master's solo and it feels the same as the original, you've learned something truly necessary to the art of jazz improv.
If you take any chord tone or small group of chord tones in any alt7 chord and play it in the infinite number of time permutations available, half notes, quarter notes, 16th, quarter and eight note triplets and so on, you may be doing yourself more justice early in your journey than learning licks. Joe Pass for one was a master at doing and teaching this.
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