Mick goodrick advice, opinions please.

[TH]

You made a good point. I was just being an annoying pedant about the right/left brain stuff.

Huge skeptic here too. Aristotelian/Platonic. Apollonian/Dyonissian. Jungian dialectic. Yin/Yang. The study of duality is as old as our self reflexion. A few years back Ingrid Jensen, trumpet player mentioned how Jill Bolte Taylor's book changed her life as a musician; the sudden realization of dual approaches. My thesis work is on hemispheric learning, and Iain McGilchrist's publications are compelling for me in that respect. But I'm not here to sell philosophy, just comment on how recognition of two very different visions we possess can be used by us in respecting them both.
I look at position playing. Sure I'm at home in that realm. And really, when I find myself in the zone, I feel myself thinking differently, hearing differently, using a lyric voice and using the string differently. But that's just me.
I have found strategies to get into the zone. The frame work of how I do that is grounded in brain discipline. That's all.
Singing a line, playing along a string, hearing rather than looking at a page, whatever gets you there.

David

[TH]

The latter is something I can then use in a solo. The former is kind of fun, but how useful is it really to me in the long run? Wouldn't it be more useful to practice learning your intervals really strongly in position playing, so that those skills become second nature to you when you actually perform?
.

You do what works for you, really immerse yourself in it and play it for all it's worth. If you ever hit a wall and you wonder how to get past it, you have options. If you ever find yourself comfortable in one approach then you have a choice, enjoy your comfort or look for another door. This is a door. If you aren't attracted or compelled to go through, that's good. It means there's something that makes you YOU.
Play positions and make your mark. Learn to get around until it's second nature. Do what comes naturally, and for goodness sake don't play single string because somebody in a friggin book says it's a good idea.
It's just one option. Like using a pick. I think it was Schillinger who said "Genius is the realization of a tendency" so go with what's right and ignore what you don't need now. 's not going anywhere. All the answers are only useful for the one who needs to ask the question.
David

[Pat Clare]

If you enjoy the journey of learning, there are always more approaches and techniques to explore.

[ecj]

Huge skeptic here too. Aristotelian/Platonic. Apollonian/Dyonissian. Jungian dialectic. Yin/Yang. The study of duality is as old as our self reflexion. A few years back Ingrid Jensen, trumpet player mentioned how Jill Bolte Taylor's book changed her life as a musician; the sudden realization of dual approaches. My thesis work is on hemispheric learning, and Iain McGilchrist's publications are compelling for me in that respect. But I'm not here to sell philosophy, just comment on how recognition of two very different visions we possess can be used by us in respecting them both.
I look at position playing. Sure I'm at home in that realm. And really, when I find myself in the zone, I feel myself thinking differently, hearing differently, using a lyric voice and using the string differently. But that's just me.
I have found strategies to get into the zone. The frame work of how I do that is grounded in brain discipline. That's all.
Singing a line, playing along a string, hearing rather than looking at a page, whatever gets you there.

David

Have you ever read Betsy Edwards' "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"?

I'm a hack visual artist as well as a hack jazz guitarist, and I got so much out of that book, both in terms of improving my drafting skills and in terms of rethinking how I practice art in general. There's a side conversation on "complete skills" that is pretty interesting, as well.

I know a lot of the hemisphere stuff has been called into question, but however it works there's definitely a way to enter into a less analytical cognitive space where art gets a lot easier and freer.

You might dig it.

[Jonzo]

Like I said, the right/left brain thing is a myth, but I do believe that science will soon confirm the "dessert compartment" in the human stomach.

[monk]

Like I said, the right/left brain thing is a myth, but I do believe that science will soon confirm the "desert compartment" in the human stomach.

You're saying that there's a dry, hot, sandy section in the stomach?

[Chuck]

I'd forgotten how much I hate string noise."
Do they even MAKE flats for nylon? Gotta try some spray!
David

LaBella Professional: 500P (stainless) and 410P (IIRC) which are copper. Gene Bertoncini uses the latter. You may like them if you're playing amplified. Acoustically....meh.

Chuck

[MarkRhodes]

Have you ever read Betsy Edwards' "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"?.

This wasn't addressed to me but I bought and enjoyed that book.

[ronjazz]

Working on the basics is never done. You know, every spring, baseball players go into training starting with the same things they started with when they were 10 years old, same with Karate practitioners. In any good karate class, the black belts work out with the beginners and intermediates dropping out when their level is reached, until only black belts are left. Mickey Mantle always got to the pregame workout early, to play pepper and take lots of practice swings.

The unitar concept is a great way to teach beginners not to be afraid of the high positions, and is a valuable tool for securing your ability to jump to far-away notes or chords when the inspiration strikes. Mickey Mantle always got to the pregame workout early, to play pepper and take lots of practice swings.

[TH]

Have you ever read Betsy Edwards' "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain"?

.

Thanks! I love that book, and each time I pick it up I wonder "Why can't somebody write a Guitar book like this?" That, and The Art Spirit by Robert Henri. Both ongoing examples that great lessons come from places you might not think to look.
David

[Jonzo]

You're saying that there's a dry, hot, sandy section in the stomach?

I'm glad I'm not the only annoying pedant.

[TH]

You're saying that there's a dry, hot, sandy section in the stomach?

You've had her cooking too, then, eh?
David

[monk]

I'm glad I'm not the only annoying pedant.

......and laden with rare spices and fine oils the caravan of camels marched into the dessert.

[Jonzo]

Well, I changed the spelling in my post about dessert. So if you delete your post about my post, I'll delete my post about your post about my post...

Oh, forget it.

[monk]

Well, I changed the spelling in my post about dessert. So if you delete your post about my post, I'll delete my post about your post about my post...

Oh, forget it.

Where's the fun in that?

[Dbl]

…
I would be interested in hearing from people who started with mastering playing on single strings in all keys first, as I have never heard of anyone taking that route…..
.

well hello! I might just be that person!

. I bought my first guitar seven months ago.

I have an intermediate piano background and I didn’t get a traditional guitar teacher.

So when I got the guitar I thought, now what? well, obviously I was going to do what I already knew which was piano playing. and this weird looking instrument is basically just six piano keyboards overlapping. so that’s the way I learnt it.

so here’s the things I’ve not done

1. scales
2. arpeggios
3. reading music
4. practice
5. learning songs
6. position playing - if you asked me to play a lick, I couldn’t because I don’t know any I wouldn’t be able to do it if I did.

here’s the things I have done

1. playing up and down single strings and getting comfortable moving between strings. I’m now at a point where I can pretty much jump from any place on any string to any other place on any other string and run any melody I want up and down a string or between strings
2. Improvising to actual songs and backing tracks for hours and hours. This is literally all I do.

so where am I after seven months?

1. Improvising a melody along strings comes completely naturally now.
2. I’m beginning to integrate two and three note chords as a decoration to the melody.
3. Can jam with other musicians comfortably
4. The more familiar I am with a song or backing track the more fun stuff I can do. it’s not the same as learning a song. I can’t reproduce anything. it’s more question of knowing it in the sense of being completely familiar with it.
5. i’ve noticed that when I play with any particular backing track I’m now beginning to produce a consistent melody every time. Same with playing along to actual songs.
6. it’s not really for me to say if I’m any good or not. But all I know is that 90% of the time I like the sound I’m making. Which is why I like doing it so much!

what can’t I do?

basically I don’t really know position playing. so

1. I can’t play licks or shred.
2. I can’t play anything without accompaniment. Literally all I can do is improvise and jam within a chord structure given by someone else.
3. because I don’t really know position playing I am technically quite limited in the traditional sense.

I think 2 is the most frustrating thing. my problem is the opposite to most guitarists. They struggle to improvise with others. I struggle to do anything else!

I didn’t know about the mick Goodrich book until a few days ago. reading it was a revelation. he was describing my journey (obviously only the early part of the journey!!)

I don’t know where I will end up. lacking position playing skills is definitely an issue. so is being unable to play without other musicians or a backing track. But improvisation is easy and a joy. so I think Mick Goodrich was absolutely right. at least based on my personal sample of one ???

Ps I don’t think mick sufficiently emphasised one thing. The tonal quality Of playing along a single string And then moving the melody to a different string is very powerful and very different to position playing which necessarily mixes up the strings.

[bako]

Although not the most common path it sounds like excellent progress and an interesting learning trajectory.

By the time you add a third string, you can play an octave and a ma2nd within 5frets EAD & ADG and an octave and a m2nd on DGB and GBE. Adds also 3 note chords + 2 note chords with a skipped string

Four strings within 5 frets: EADG an 8ve + a P5th, ADGB & DGBE an 8ve + a b5th
Adds also 4 note chords and 3 and 2 note chords with a few skipped string options

onward etc.

[JazzPadd]

Thanks for reviving this valuable discussion with a fresh perspective and for sharing your experiences.

I’d just add that being dependent on accompaniment, more or less, is not necessarily a drawback, and especially if you are suggesting it as meaning dependent on people.

I think many of us yearn to play with others on a regular basis and your approach helps take the leap.

Beyond using backing tracks, you are necessitating social interaction while learning and playing. I’ll give it a whirl at the next jam session!

[Christian Miller]

I’m learning tenor banjo at the moment and I feel this type of stuff has stood me in good stead. It’s. Matter of fact- right the notes along one string - more so than the guitar actually because there’s less duplication. Then, where’s the triads? How do we systematically invert the seventh chords? Not quite onto voice leading cycles but… I’m not ruling it out.

I do appreciate an instrument with a sensible tuning scheme and it’s nice how spaced all the chords are lol. Everything’s a spread triad or a drop 2/4

It is interesting because it’s stuff that’s relevant to any polyphonic string instrument. You could do the same process on five string banjo (I expect Bela probably has lol), renaissance lute, baroque lutes, uniform tuned nine string Djent machines, seven string bass guitars you name it lol. Maybe even alternate guitar tunings haha.

It’s like a muscle that gets stronger.


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[Cunamara]

I was amusing myself playing the Unitar one rehearsal. After the song was over, the sax player looked at me and said "why the heck are you playing all up and down the neck only on one string?" I explained but he didn't look particularly impressed.

[Jimmy blue note]

I was amusing myself playing the Unitar one rehearsal. After the song was over, the sax player looked at me and said "why the heck are you playing all up and down the neck only on one string?" I explained but he didn't look particularly impressed.

I was building an instrument. It was just the corpus, unfinished wood, no grain figure visible being in the dry and rough, and something resembling a shipping crate more than a guitar. The customer looked at it and the look on her face said "I made a mistake. This is not what I had in mind."
8 months later she saw it as a finished shiny deeply figured guitar you could look "through" in the grain below the finish. She was in love.

Coltrane used to play a week at the Vanguard. Earlier in the week, his solos were a series of sinewy scalular threads in a basket. He was spreading out concepts from the practice room and finding shape on the bandstand. By the end of the week, the solos were the stuff of countless transcriptions and volumes of hours of study from students and players alike. Impulse didn't release Vanguard tapes from the start of the week. Those were Coltrane's Unitar sessions.

Nobody understands the work that goes into a good soup, or a good guitar, or a constructive concept of melodic execution... until it's done.

[Jimmy blue note]

I’m learning tenor banjo at the moment and I feel this type of stuff has stood me in good stead. It’s. Matter of fact- right the notes along one string - more so than the guitar actually because there’s less duplication. Then, where’s the triads? How do we systematically invert the seventh chords? Not quite onto voice leading cycles but… I’m not ruling it out.

I do appreciate an instrument with a sensible tuning scheme and it’s nice how spaced all the chords are lol. Everything’s a spread triad or a drop 2/4

It is interesting because it’s stuff that’s relevant to any polyphonic string instrument. You could do the same process on five string banjo (I expect Bela probably has lol), renaissance lute, baroque lutes, uniform tuned nine string Djent machines, seven string bass guitars you name it lol. Maybe even alternate guitar tunings haha.

It’s like a muscle that gets stronger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When Mick was teaching at Berklee, he always availed himself to the Mentorship program, where any faculty member could take instruction from any other teacher. He had some stellar guitarists through this program but he was always saddened by how few and far between these fruitful relationships were. One day Bela Fleck knocked on his door and Mick said this was one of the most enlightening relationships he had in all the years of teaching. The fresh approach, sounds and genres made the material come to life in ways neither of them could have imagined. And it fit perfectly.

[sully75]

Hi everyone, new to the forum, here is my first question. What do you guys or girls think to Mick goodricks advice about learning to improvise on one string before moving on to two then three and so on. As he says and I think I agree you instantly are playing up and down the neck and are not stuck in one position as often happens when we learn to play by learning positions first. He also mentions how easy it is to see note relations in a more linear manner. He claims in his book that this style of teaching is missing from most guitar methods, so what do you all think. Sorry if this subject has been covered already.

I'm a big fan of the opposite of this, as was explained to me by Christiaan Van Hemert. Learning a lot of licks and how to play them over chord progressions and vary them FIRST. I think doing all sorts of exercises like this is great, but I think for most people, playing really nicely over chord changes with good vocabulary is going to be way more satisfying. When you can do that, exploring the guitar like MG suggests sounds like a great idea but if your goal is to play nice sounding guitar sooner vs later, playing licks and ideas is going to be more fun. And being fun will encourage you to practice more.

I'm just going to suggest that playing up and down one string, it's going to be pretty hard not to sound kinda stupid, at least at first. Pat Metheny I'm sure could play a whole concert on one string and it would probably be interesting enough, but it's actually a difficult thing to do, at least as far as playing ideas. It is making things REALLY hard. Starting out this seems like a not-great idea.

[Cunamara]

I don't think most of the advice in TAG is aimed at beginning guitarists, but people who have already got some skills under their fingers. The Unitar is about breaking up habitual patterns, not being locked into licks and pre-learned ideas which is, after all, the essence of jazz.

[sully75]

I don't think most of the advice in TAG is aimed at beginning guitarists, but people who have already got some skills under their fingers. The Unitar is about breaking up habitual patterns, not being locked into licks and pre-learned ideas which is, after all, the essence of jazz.

Totally. Maybe I misread the original post from however long ago but it seemed like a beginner-ish person asking for advice.

For me so many of the things I started working on early on (self taught more or less) were really innapropriate for what I needed at the time.

Oddly enough my laptop is sitting on a (unopened for quite a while) copy of TAG.

Someday I'll dig in to it again. Right now I'm just trying to play stuff that sounds good.

Well on second thought, I don't think MG really says who the book is for or what level. Probably a lot of books should have a thing up front that tells you what you should be able to do before you dig in.

I really like Ben Monder's list of things to be able to do before you ask him for a lesson. I likely can't do any of them....