Mick goodrick advice, opinions please.

[monk]

Play, Play, Play, Play, Play, Play, Play. Torches burning, pitchforks stabbing the air, the chanting mob grows increasingly restless.

[MarkRhodes]

Might I humbly suggest that this be done on its own thread? What began as a valuable discussion on an improviser's toolset has taken on an air of apologetic overdue homework assignment.

It would have been nice if it happened that way but it didn't and I can't see moving, o, one-third of a thread to another forum.

That said, it is now possible for targuit to start a new thread with an impromptu video of his playing...

I want to be clear about something: no one has to pass an audition to join this forum or post. Most people never post videos of themselves playing and no one complains. Nor should they.

But in this case, which has been gathering steam for a long time, we have a member (-Jay, aka targuit) who has posted on dozens of threads about his abilities. It is natural for those of us who love the guitar to want to hear the work of one among us to whom it all comes rather easily. That's all.

Jay never has to post, but if he can't ever seem to get around to it, people are going to be more than a little suspicious about the skills he claims to have. I say the ball is in his court and we're waiting to see how he handles it.

[MarkRhodes]

Until that happens, let us now return to the subject of Mick Goodrick.....

[paulkogut]

So this thread has taken some turns since the last time I've been near the internets. To accentuate the positive, I'd like to add how excited I am that some folks are seeing the implications of the 'one string' thing in regard to sequences, melodic continuity and time feel, best wishes for all your explorations!


For those on the fence, I'll add a anecdote from some years ago. In the 1990's I was getting going as a professional guitarist. Jim Hall took a liking to me, and we spent a number of afternoons playing in the old Blackstone Hotel when he'd visit Chicago. In addition to the "Bodies and Soul" and "Outs of Nowhere" we'd play, Jim would always insist we'd compose a free piece anytime we'd get together. Sometimes he'd just kick one off with no words, other times he'd set up some parameters. I still remember him suggesting we play piece, both of us sticking to only the G string, and me trying to find some cohesive music out of that direction. From my perspective, there's far more to be explored with the possibilities of one string than dismissing it as a beginner's exercise in note location.

PK

[silverfoxx]

I was checking out that link and stumbled on the version above. The vocals, piano, and drums were in high school when they recorded it. The bass player is their 74 year old teacher, Marshal Hawkins.

Singer is now at New England Conservatory. Pianist is starting at USC in the Fall. I think the drummer, a Russian kid, is going to attend Berklee.

Check it out.

Jonzo.
Thanks for this fabulous post, a wonderful rendition, am glad of this Forum to hear performances
like this which may otherwise be overlooked.



kind regards from the UK

Silverfoxx

[Reg]

Yea the single string thing... is beat into the ground... I use to always perform standards in different keys and different time signatures... generally 3/4, 4/4 and 5/4. Most tend to sound like sh** when we pushed the time signatures to far, the rhythmic organization of the melodies would get to complicated for unison performance... anyway, This is another skill development tool, somewhat like it seems many have their melodic ears opened from performing on single strings, also very useful.

[henryrobinett]

I'm out of the country with a ver poor and expensive internet subscription so I won't be able YouTube anything until I get back, in a week. Why was it taken down?

[TH]

Now that we're getting back on track, I've had a renewed awareness travel along the length of the strings. In triad couplings going from one chord to another, it's really useful to be able to get around without hesitation. It's not a given that you can just do it, it does take practice. This weekend I was trying out a new instrument, a nylon 7 string with narrower string spacing and a cutaway. In our Sunday session I was really getting into working up and down the neck. Afterwords I asked my partner in crimes what he thought. "The guitar sounds really good. I'd forgotten how much I hate string noise."
Do they even MAKE flats for nylon? Gotta try some spray!
David

[henryrobinett]

I skimmed through the thread and can't find anyone who actually requested a transcription. Jckoto3 merely threw out the title. So it's not surprising nobody has requested it. It wasn't needed. I certainly am not interested in a transcription of anything. I do my own. And generally improvise my chord melodies.

I'm not trying to bust your chops. The whole exercise has just become so bloated and complicated. But I look forward to hearing it when i get back.

[JakeAcci]

Single string approaches have become a big part of my teaching, to beginners and 'beyond.'

Whenever I teach a new collection of pitches I have the student learn it on a single string, whenever we improvise with a pitch collection we improvise with it first of a single string, when we first talk about note names we look at them string-by-string. An essential task I have everybody do is figure out a set of nursery rhymes on a single string. I feel that there's not much use in doing things more 'advanced' if they can't get to this first. I spend a while advocating and demonstrating just how much can be done on a single string.

I find that most of my beginner-improviser students can play much, much more melodically on a single string than in a position. Then of course, we do work to try to get them more comfortable in positions, but the single string is a great place to start.

Completely subjectively, I think a lot of guitarists make more pleasing melodic statements, to my ears, when playing more vertically rather than in a box. Obviously both by themselves, as well as mixing the two, are important.

I also think understanding the open position well is an important foundation for understanding the guitar, even if one never winds up playing open position scales.

I basically follow Mick's Advancing Guitarist book as a guideline in many ways.

[TH]

Completely subjectively, I think a lot of guitarists make more pleasing melodic statements, to my ears, when playing more vertically rather than in a box. Obviously both by themselves, as well as mixing the two, are important.

I also think understanding the open position well is an important foundation for understanding the guitar, even if one never winds up playing open position scales.

I basically follow Mick's Advancing Guitarist book as a guideline in many ways.

Jake, there's an interesting concept in the art world referred to as "thinking from the right side of the brain." In short, it's the art and craft of being able to visualize with a broad eye, not getting caught up in the details. This has been an underlying part of Mick's teaching to the point where he uses drawing as a part of learning to play at a different level.

Single string playing, like drawing with an eye to the relationships on a piece of paper, relies on spacial relationships, the input of the ear (which is right brain tendency) and bypassing a strictly pattern, visual and placement relationship (which is a left brain tendency.) It's great to have an awareness of that balance from the beginning. It's great to supplement a habit heavy tendency as a player. It's great to keep in mind as an experienced player.

I've had students who've had many years of playing experience. They come to me and ask me to help them break old habits. They play the same solo a little too easily. I say two things: Let's work on going up and down the neck with training the ear, and let's work on rhythmic awareness. Both things are dependent on a sense of space and perspective. Both things get past a pattern of taking pitch and rhythmic weight for granted.

Just something to share on the topic.

David

[mr. beaumont]

My posts were not derogatory.

[mr. beaumont]

Soundclick? When?

We're talking jazz here, specifically improv. The question wasn't if you could play at all--nobody questioned that.

Where in these posts do I question your ability? Never once do I say "I dont think this guy can play." All I did was state a reason why folks would want to know and hear you play some jazz, because your opinions on the learning of jazz are very strong.

[targuit]

"Yeah, I agree with this, and with Jeff (Mr. Beaumont.) Targuit, you have talked a lot about how good you are, how you learn pieces so easily, in half no time, and yet you seem to have incredible difficulty working a webcam... It's not complicated. You've seen at least a hundred videos posted here by members, playing in their living rooms, studies, what have you. Not professional lighting or sound, but no one cares. People just want a sense of how you actually play. In large measure because you seem so unwilling to provide one..... " - Mark Rhodes

I am aware that you may not recall. In any case, Mark and others who jumped on the bandwagon might remove this commentary as well.

Jay

[monk]

David, I have deleted several posts as you requested. I now expect you will follow suit with a number of yours - 80, 85,106,114,115. In the spirit of comity, of course. As for the other derogatory posts by Jeff, jckoto, and others, I leave it to their conscience to decide. I remind you I did not question anyone's authenticity.

A lesson to remember. As when I do post some jazz videos very soon, some people will be swallowing rather hard. After all, it is hard to swallow crow....

Jay

While I realize that it is the right of any member to delete previous posts, I think that doing so interrupts the flow of the thread and in some cases makes the entire discussion incoherent. If anyone makes a statement in a post on this forum I feel that they should accept responsibility for their post and let it stand. It's a disservice to the forum and the spirit of open discussion to remove posts after the fact.

Disagreements do happen and in many cases over the years I've seen public apologies issued and in some cases posts have been made that stated that disagreements were resolved privately through PM.

Regards,
Jerome

[Jonzo]

Jake, there's an interesting concept in the art world referred to as "thinking from the right side of the brain." In short, it's the art and craft of being able to visualize with a broad eye, not getting caught up in the details. This has been an underlying part of Mick's teaching to the point where he uses drawing as a part of learning to play at a different level[...]

"Have you ever heard people say that they tend to be more of a right-brain or left-brain thinker? From books to television programs, you've probably heard the phrase mentioned numerous times or perhaps you've even taken an online test to determine which type best describes you. Given the popularity of the idea of "right brained" and "left brained" thinkers, it might surprise you to learn that this idea is little more than a myth [Read more... ]"

You are right that it is important to learn to think beyond the technical details, and it is still useful to think in terms of cognitive strengths and weakness, regardless of where they come from in the brain.

[MarkRhodes]

No more talk about targuit in this thread, guys. If someone wants to start a thread on that, fine. But this thread is about Mick Goodrick's book, The Advancing Guitarist. There's much useful material in this thread. We can get back on topic and add more useful material.

[ecj]

This thread is incredibly confusing at this point. I have no idea what's going on.

On the single-string thing...I guess I get it. I mean, I really do understand how it would kind of break you out of shells and get you thinking differently. But, this just seems like such a guitar thing to do. I don't know any pianists who are like, "Hey, I'm only going to play with my forefingers for a week to practice hearing differently," or sax players who refuse to use their ring fingers.

I sometimes think that guitarists are too concerned with avoiding licks or attempting to play purely by ear. I can understand the inclination (I'm victim to this all the time, too), and there's plenty of time to practice this stuff, but I'm just not seeing how this is more "musical" than anything else. You embed muscle memory so that you can pull off your licks. Just because you learned a lick doesn't mean it's no longer "musical" to play it.

Look at Coltrane's solo on Giant Steps. That is incredibly beautiful and musical, and I'm sure he had practiced almost every lick in it 1,000x before he played it on the record.

I sometimes worry that I spent too much time with this single-string kind of stuff, and now have a pretty good ear, but am playing a lot of catch up developing the basic chops and vocabulary I need to be better at playing jazz.

[Jonzo]

It's not just a guitar thing; many musicians--particularly improvising ones--put artificial constraints on their practice to strengthen skills in other areas, and break out of their usual tendencies. The single string aspect is the only thing that makes this line of thinking particular to stringed instruments.

[MarkRhodes]

You embed muscle memory so that you can pull off your licks. Just because you learned a lick doesn't mean it's no longer "musical" to play it..

I agree with that.

[JakeAcci]

Putting limitations on practice activities is common to many instruments. For example, I heard Brad Mehldau would give himself the challenge of trying to play through tunes at excruciatingly slow tempos, like 10bpm. Or a famous saxophonist, I'm kicking myself that I can't remember the name/which one, would spend hours playing on one note to try to get the tambre 'just right.'

It wouldn't surprise me if some pianists did in fact practice with one finger for some activities.

[TH]

"Have you ever heard people say that they tend to be more of a right-brain or left-brain thinker? From books to television programs, you've probably heard the phrase mentioned numerous times or perhaps you've even taken an online test to determine which type best describes you. Given the popularity of the idea of "right brained" and "left brained" thinkers, it might surprise you to learn that this idea is little more than a myth [Read more... ]"

You are right that it is important to learn to think beyond the technical details, and it is still useful to think in terms of cognitive strengths and weakness, regardless of where they come from in the brain.

There's so much hoopla and abused interpretation that goes on in the name of cognitive science. That's not my vocation. I point this out only to open up a discussion about the awareness I feel is helpful in becoming a complete realized composer and improvisor. Awareness of the concrete, awareness of the abstract in balance. Hands and ear-in balance. What your fingers know, where your arm moves-in balance. The names of the notes, the functions of the harmony-in balance.
I think we don't grow by putting a methodology on a pedestal and shutting down our awareness. I do think that the better teachers I've had have had a broad vision and let me find the ways to them by offering options. There is a concrete thinker in each of us, and an abstract visionary too. In the world of visual arts, it's part and parcel to approach creativity this way. I've found it not only relevant but really helpful for myself.
Maybe this is a diversion of the thread. We'll see.
David

[TH]

Putting limitations on practice activities is common to many instruments. For example, I heard Brad Mehldau would give himself the challenge of trying to play through tunes at excruciatingly slow tempos, like 10bpm. Or a famous saxophonist, I'm kicking myself that I can't remember the name/which one, would spend hours playing on one note to try to get the tambre 'just right.'

It wouldn't surprise me if some pianists did in fact practice with one finger for some activities.

Jimmy Knepper did that. Noah Preminger, Sonny Rollins and George Garzone are all staunch champions of the long tone as the key to "the sound".

David

[Jonzo]

There's so much hoopla and abused interpretation that goes on in the name of cognitive science. That's not my vocation. I point this out only to open up a discussion about the awareness I feel is helpful in becoming a complete realized composer and improvisor. Awareness of the concrete, awareness of the abstract in balance. Hands and ear-in balance. What your fingers know, where your arm moves-in balance. The names of the notes, the functions of the harmony-in balance.
I think we don't grow by putting a methodology on a pedestal and shutting down our awareness. I do think that the better teachers I've had have had a broad vision and let me find the ways to them by offering options. There is a concrete thinker in each of us, and an abstract visionary too. In the world of visual arts, it's part and parcel to approach creativity this way. I've found it not only relevant but really helpful for myself.
Maybe this is a diversion of the thread. We'll see.
David

You made a good point. I was just being an annoying pedant about the right/left brain stuff.

[ecj]

Putting limitations on practice activities is common to many instruments. For example, I heard Brad Mehldau would give himself the challenge of trying to play through tunes at excruciatingly slow tempos, like 10bpm. Or a famous saxophonist, I'm kicking myself that I can't remember the name/which one, would spend hours playing on one note to try to get the tambre 'just right.'

It wouldn't surprise me if some pianists did in fact practice with one finger for some activities.

Yeah, I get this stuff. I guess here's where I think there's some difference.

Practicing really slow like Brad Meldau is not instrument specific. I think we all try to do that at some point.

The long tone thing is about working on your tone, then being able to use that tone in your normal playing.

The single string stuff seems different to me. I've tried it, did it a lot. I'm not sure what I really got out of it. I kind of wish I'd spent that time working on really nailing a Joe Pass lick with solid time, tone, and feel.

The latter is something I can then use in a solo. The former is kind of fun, but how useful is it really to me in the long run? Wouldn't it be more useful to practice learning your intervals really strongly in position playing, so that those skills become second nature to you when you actually perform?

I'm playing devil's advocate, not necessarily suggesting that no one should do it.