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Just a reflection or two about 'playing outside' as a trend in jazz styling. I was listening to a YT video of Peter Bernstein and Randy Johnston covering Darn That Dream. Both players are certainly highly skilled guitarists. But as I listened to the duet, I was struck by how, when playing "outside", things can start sounding dangerously close to noodling.
I recognize that in some respects my comments are a function of my personal taste in music. I like quirky outside lines here and there, but it's like a spice in a dish - too much hot pepper could spoil the taste and harmony of the ingredients. I guess the point is that when the solo is about finding ways to sound angular and to warp the melody, I get bored. I drift off from my engagement with the musical elements. I also suspect that up and coming guitarists in the public eye have to try to sound distinctive, but I think they can lose a part of the audience in the process.
From a technical point of view, I find that adopting a 'three finger" fingering style alla Wes Montgomery or Peter Bernstein is helpful to create that slightly angular outside sound. Funny, since Wes could sound pretty conventional at times, yet could rip off outside lines as well. But he always seemed to keep the integrity of the melody in the forefront. He kept the outside lines as a spice and not the main dish. George Benson has a similar approach, though I'm not equating their two styles.
This clip is probably not the best example of my comment, as on listening a second time, I realize that both excellent guitarists were not all that outside with their lines, and Peter and Randy can both play nice comping chords as well. There is another clip on YT of Peter playing Billie's Bounce that might be a better example. Anyway, something to talk about....
JayLast edited by targuit; 06-28-2013 at 04:00 AM.
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06-28-2013 03:39 AM
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I'm not sure how much a "trend" this actually is, but considering historically jazz guitar has been "behind" other instruments (horns, piano), maybe we're just catching up
[listen to sax giants like Lovano, Garzone, or younger cats like Mark Turner, Joshua Redman, or Seamus Blake -- most guitarists are pretty tame compared to these guys!].
I agree with your second analysis: this video is NOT "out." I also agree with your statement that, essentially, playing "out" for the sake of playing "out" would be boring, whereas using the full range of the instrument to express musical ideas could be beautiful and exciting! A "traditional" cat like Jimmy Bruno and a "modern" cat like Chris Crocco both say the same thing: you have 12 pitches (in Western music) -- use them wisely, and use them musically!
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Cab Calloway considered Charlie Parker and Diz's music so incomprehensible he called it Chinese Music. Louis Armstrong appreciated but never "got" the trends in instrumental music that would become swing. People still consider Coltrane too "out" to listen to. Bartok is unlistenable and senseless noodling for late romantic tastes.
I listen to Jimmy Bruno, I used to see him a lot at Chris's in Philly. I did enjoy it, but I asked myself more than once "Why doesn't he stop noodling?" and I'd go up and see Joe Morris and think "Now you've really found something there."
If you your ear knows where the music is going, it's musical. If my ear knows what you're thinking, it's musical. If your hands are playing for your ears, it's noodling. If I hear your hands more than I believe your ear, it sounds like noodling.
Two to tango. If you're not following the music, it's not dancing.
David
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I think some instruments, particularly horns and wind as well as to a degree piano, are more suited to bebop and playing more outside lines from a technical standpoint. I like Peter Bernstein's playing but I think he often walks that line veering towards noodling. Maybe I'm just a more lyrical player. Or perhaps I just find a Joe Pass, who could play bebop style with anyone, a more coherent musician. But hearing Joe play Cherokee at a blistering tempo could sound mighty close to noodling to me.
As for horn players, I never really listen much to Charlie Parker, though I respect his contributions. Dizzy I can very much take or leave, and Coltrane - let's just say my favorite album is Ballads and his recordings with Johnny Hartmann. Probably says more about my taste than the relative musicianship of the players. I think the worst CD in my collection is the collaboration between Pat Metheny and Ornette Coleman - I never listen to it.Last edited by targuit; 06-28-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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"outside" also has a lot to do with the listener ears and ability to follow the tune. I remember going to hear Joe Pass in his virtuoso days some audience and critics complained he was too out there. When Joe gets going and he reharmonizes and changes tunes a lot, so if not familiar with the tune you could/would get lost. Some people like the getting out there and seeing how a player brings things back in, others keep the tune running in their head so they know where it started. Everyone listens differently and their ears are of different maturity.
As Chick Corea said..... it ain't about what you play outside, it how you bring it back in.
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I don't think "outside" is a tangible thing...as TH was alluding to, isn't "outside" just a word for "more dissonant than I'm used to hearing" or "more dissonant than I can understand" or "sounds bad to me" ?Just a reflection or two about 'playing outside' as a trend in jazz styling.
"Noodling" is also a really subjective term. I think one man's noodle can be another's spaghetti. Wait, that didn't really make any sense. Perceiving 'noodling' is perceiving a lack of conviction, which is a personal and subjective thing. If I accept the word "outside" as meaning "outside of a certain tonal realm" (that 'realm' defined by the limitations of the listener) I don't think tonality and conviction have all that much to do with one another. You can certainly play without conviction ("noodle") using just the white keys on the piano.I was listening to a YT video of Peter Bernstein and Randy Johnston covering Darn That Dream. Both players are certainly highly skilled guitarists. But as I listened to the duet, I was struck by how, when playing "outside", things can start sounding dangerously close to noodling.
I think they are entirely a function of your personal taste in music.I recognize that in some respects my comments are a function of my personal taste in music.
It's good to know what you like and what you don't!I guess the point is that when the solo is about finding ways to sound angular and to warp the melody, I get bored. I drift off from my engagement with the musical elements.
How?From a technical point of view, I find that adopting a 'three finger" fingering style alla Wes Montgomery or Peter Bernstein is helpful to create that slightly angular outside sound.
You mention Wes, Benson, and Pass. These guys all play in what is now a very old style! If that style is your preference as a listener that is cool, but many jazz musicians have been trying to evolve harmonically, and that does mean pushing the comfort zone. It's part of the music (for some.)
There's a lot of music out there. Honestly I think the discussions about what's "good" or "bad" around here always simply boil down to "I like this, and I don't like that." And that's cool. I think everybody hears things differently and wants something different out of their listening experience. Some people want to push their ears and want to get into new territory. I don't think the intention of all musicians is to just make you tap your foot and go "hey, that's nice!" Add maybe sometimes it is, but it's improvisation and maybe they miss their mark!
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I don't see how horns or piano are more suited to playing outside than a guitar -- it's not like the inside notes on the fretboard light up! But on horns and piano it's easier to burn and spill the notes out, maybe that's it.
Originally Posted by targuit
As for Pat Metheny/Ornette Coleman, I love Song X! But then I'm an Ornette fan ... like Pat!
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To level the accusation that a player is "noodling" - it's either true or false - not opinion. Either the player in question meant to play what they did, or they were just messing around without conviction - guilty as charged. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Often when someone invokes the "N" word, it's more about the fact that the player they're referring to played something they didn't like or understand.
In much the same was that the term "melodic" has come to mean "shit that sounds good to me"...
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yeah, after reading this, it's pretty clear that the problem is not that guys are "noodling" but rather that your ears are just not good enough to hear what they're doing Originally Posted by targuit
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Interesting. Trane noodled all the time in the Giant Steps era - that album was one big noodle party. You'd be hard pressed to craft a progressive story on giant steps changes anyway, considering how strictly they guide the soloist harmonically.
Sometimes, that kind of searching can sound interesting. I'd rather hear someone try and fail than strictly follow some recipe in order to avoid sounding like noodling at all costs. You take risks, it won't always make sense but at least you tried. Isn't jazz all about being daring anyway? I don't know, but I do know that I appreciate listening to daring players way more than those who play it safe, have been playing for 50 years+ and used the same vocab essentially played the same solo for the last 40 years, to take another extreme as an example for contrast.
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I would strongly disagree that Trane was "noodling".
Maybe we're working from different definitions of "noodling"...
I would think that a musician "taking risks", being "daring" etc... would certainly preclude noodling, at least working from my definition of "noodling"...
BTW - I am also of the opinion that Trane never really had a chance to do justice to Giant Steps, as he kind of approached that tune more like an etude, especially the A section. He kind of abandoned it rather quickly, as he had other things on his mind.
I have heard a great many other musicians get a lot deeper into Giant Steps and other 3 tonic tunes than Trane ever did - making a lot of effort to *not* be constrained as much by the changes, being more lyrical in their phrasing - not that he couldn't have, he just had to move on...
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Some musicians and critics did complain that they thought some nights Coltrane was practicing on stage, which Coltrane always denied doing. Actually a lot of stories of Coltrane constantly practicing when not on stage. For example one of the band members when in his home town invited Trane over to dinner, Coltrane shows up with his horn. The woman fixing dinner said it will be a little bit sit and relax. Coltrane ask if there is a place he can practice so they let him into a room. Coltrance practiced right up until dinner was ready and left after dinner. Alice Coltrane talked about Trane's practice room and how he practically lived in it.
So I wouldn't say Coltrane noodled on stage, to me noodling is playing without purpose. Coltrane had a purpose, obsession, and would play anything on stage trying and get to his goal. That is also why McCoy and Elvin eventually left the band John was getting too far out in his quest.Last edited by docbop; 06-29-2013 at 11:59 PM.
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I'm using the term as people in the thread have defined it.
Personally I've never really been able to pinpoint what it means, because it obviously is a very subjective thing.
But I am considering that it must mean a lack of intention, structure and progression in regards to the big picture, the solo as a whole. Tranes formulaic improvisation on GS was obviously more concerned with harmonic constructs in the moment than the big picture. Playing on GS and related tunes WILL sound like meandering in 99% of cases because the tune inevitably pulls the player into that. That doesn't mean the player doesn't have good time or doesn't swing.
Then listen to him when he played ballads which was a whole other thing. Personally, I like both eras of Trane because they offer different listening experiences.
I hope I didn't imply that I don't regard his GS era as quality, because I do. It has had tremendeous impact on me. I was trying to objectively(as much as possible) describe the structural aspect of the solos as a whole.
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Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen
To hear Coltrane's evolution listen to his recordings of My Favorite Things he played and recorded that song from the beginning of his short career to the end.
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But on the same disc we have Countdown, with it's incredible buildup and payoff... the Giant Steps solo still sounbs exhilarating, melodic lyricism is just one way of making a personal statement. Coltrane's playing on this album, as always, is full of purpose, power and beauty, pretty much the antithesis of noodling. Originally Posted by Spirit59
Last edited by Sphere; 07-03-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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+1 Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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Dasein - "Being there" - Heidegger. Originally Posted by dasein
Criticizing someone's opinion or taste in music by suggesting that their musical comprehension "is just not good enough to hear what they're doing" is rather like explaining why you can't get your girlfriend to climax because she just doesn't appreciate your expertise.
Maybe instead of playing her Giant Steps when you are trying to broaden her horizons, you should play her this music by Birelli Lagrene.
She'll feel it more.
Just joking! But I could not resist riffing on that line. See, to me that's what jazz can be. The improvisation of a theme and variation to me needs organization, tension and climax to 'tell a story' - otherwise it can begin to sound like just rambling, even if it is 'cerebral'. Giant Steps to me is a brilliant exercise, but not something I like to listen and groove to with when the lights are low with a glass of wine and a beautiful woman. It's just not sensual.
Maybe that's the problem I feel. The dichotomy between 'cerebral' and 'sensual' jazz. For me, swing is the thing. For some, to coin a phrase, "it just don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing!" Ellington or Heidegger? I just don't remember.
I think in the end it just comes down to taste. Like ice cream. Your favorite flavor. Mine is pistachio...no, chocolate....
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christ
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to the OP:
noodling, playing outside, and fingering choices are three separate and distinct things.
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There's a story about the 3 blind men and the elephant. One says an elephant is like a long snake that wraps around and breathes hot air. One says an elephant is like a tree trunk. One says an elephant is a short ropey animal with a tassle on the end.
Jazz is a herd of elephants constantly moving through uncharted lands. Understand the beast and go for the ride. There's a lot that comes into focus when your eyes and ears are open. To a friend of the animal, it's not so strange or scary, it's a new way to explore and imagine.
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I have to admit, when I saw the original post here, holding up someone like Peter Bernstein as an example of a player who might be guilty of going a bit too"outside", my first thought was that the OP's ears weren't too developed. If Peter Bernstein falls into any "camp", it's the one that straddles tradition and modernism. I've never seen his playing characterized as being very "outside" at all, but I've read dozens of references to his "carrying the tradition forward" etc..
I'm listening to the clip now (finally), and I'm hearing about what I expected - great playing. But certainly nothing I would characterize as very "outside". Does playing raised and lowered 9ths and 5ths on dominants even count as "outside"? I don't think so. Did either of these guys ever suspend the harmony entirely?
For a forum that is populated mostly by folks claiming to be jazz guitarists, jazz being an art form that, at least to some extent, represents a certain level of creativity and freedom, I seem to detect a surprising amount of conservatism here.
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hey how's the weather where you are? And nice shoes!
David
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What initially attracted me to jazz was the feel of the music. I liked the notes too, but they didn't exactly make any sort of sense to me until I learned a couple of transcriptions note for note. Like Charlie Parker for example. I learned a blues by him, and all of a sudden it didn't sound like clutter. That doesn't mean every solo will turn out that way, but sometimes I do think some stuff takes a lot of listens.
As far as Peter Bernstein, he always strikes me as lyrical and bluesy; and probably one of my very favorite players. Very accessible really, in spite of being so sophisticated. I was lucky enough to see him live at Smalls last November, and that undoubtedly had a strong impact on my opinion about him. I do agree however that all of this is extremely subjective.Last edited by srlank; 06-30-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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Did anyone listen to Birelli and that fabulous violinist, whoever he/she is?
I suspect some are taking the subject just a bit too seriously. I am not 'attacking' or demeaning Peter Bernstein. I think he is a very fine player. I did express an opinion about my personal preference in musical styles. I think in the process of the discussion I realized that, in my own mind, the crux of the issue may be a distinction between a more cerebral or even bebop approach to music, exemplified by many horn players from the forties and fifties on up to today, versus an older tradition of swing style, more visceral music.
And quite frankly, I don't believe that it is merely a question of my "undeveloped' taste in jazz or 'ears'. To cite an example from classical music, how many of you prefer serialism or the work of older composers like Charles Ives to a more romantic style or even the music of Benjamin Britten? I really don't care for Ives. I learned to play Britten's Nocturnal in my twenties. I also play contemporary music like Frank Martin's Quattro Pieces Breves. Those pieces share a more lyrical style, though thoroughly modern music. True, I don't actually care for Coltrane's Giant Steps, but I can sight read the sheet music fluently. And I listened last night to the original recording or that associated with the transcription that someone posted. And to me, Giant Steps is more an exercise than some phenomenal compositional breakthrough. Perhaps Coltrane agreed, as someone noted that he performed the piece infrequently. I agree that the example I posted of the PB duet of Darn That Dream may not have been the best example of what I was discussing, which was that there is a 'trend' (perhaps debatable) toward playing more outside, meaning veering from the melody enough to 'deconstruct' the musical themes to a point that to me is less pleasurable than the more lyrical but doubtless technically sophisticated technique of the brilliant Birelli Lagrene. If anyone listened to Birelli and the violinist soloing over the timeless Minor Swing of Django, Birelli's brilliance should be self evident to all the cognoscenti. I'm going to create a transcription of his playing and the violinist's for my own edification and enjoyment.
But guys, in the end it is really more about the expression of personal preferences. If I suggested that Berstein's playing to me sounded a bit more outside and angular, it's nothing more than an opinion about playing music. I should have avoided the term 'noodling', though I think even my favorite guitarist, the late Joe Pass, sometimes sounded close to that on occasion. I suspect I've done my share as well. There. Mea culpa.
But don't get bent out of shape. Like I said, some like chocolate and others vanilla. It is ok to disagree. Btw, there is an article about "jazzbros" in Jazz Times, I believe, this month. Anyone read it? Peace.
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I can't hear any "outside" or noodling in PB's playing on this clip, but I can never find anything wrong in anything I've heard of his, no matter how hard I try: it seems to me like he has completely transcended the ego/hipness pitfalls so many musicians fall into. RJ does a little bit of the "cool pattern" thing here and there, but well within the tolerance of high level/quality mainstream jazz guitar. What bugged me about this clip was they aren't completely in tune.
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