Humans, playing with feeling, even at 300bpm

[ASATcat]

Shawn Lane In my opinion had it all over these rock jazz players in terms of musicality meets emotion and speed. I think Gambale is great but often leaves me a 'ok now tell me a story. I don't hear singing through his instrument.

But Lane and Gambale or Tom Quayle are not the kind of players I'm hoping would be the focus of this tread.
I'm hoping for the players that kick ass with changes at high velocity. Rogers and Metheny and Forman are the kind of players I'm talking abuot.

[ASATcat]

Imo Bruce Forman is the most under rated player mentioned so far. And I feel he is a true bebop player who's Parker style is too old fashion for the modern world of fusion enhanced jazz.
He is the best bebopper on this thread if you're bebop purest. Hands down. Julians played with Forman a number of times.

[mr. beaumont]

Julians played with Forman a number of times.

I think Julian took lessons from him in "How to look like guitar playing is absolutely the most fun thing in the world to do."

[ColinO]

Tapping can easily be adapted, whether or not it will ever be accepted is another story...there's such a stigma attached to it...unless you're stanley jordan...but that's a different approach to two hands on the fretboard...but so many people just see it as a show offy technique...

Plus, it sounds best on a guitar with lightish strings and very low action...And I for one can't give up my setup just yet.

I've heard some guys(good players) try tapping during a jazz improve and it's just a technique that doesn't really sound that good in a jazz tune. As a result the jazz guys will never spend enough time working on that technique to get all that good at it. Not every technique works with every genre. For example, try playing a Rasgueado during a blues.

[ASATcat]

Boy, writing with these small keys on my phone is hard.
When I wrote 'Forman kicks ass', well let's just say the K and the L are right next to each other. Glad I caught it before anyone like mods saw it. But man did I laugh.
Careful slick, lol

[ASATcat]

I've heard some guys(good players) try tapping during a jazz improve and it's just a technique that doesn't really sound that good in a jazz tune. As a result the jazz guys will never spend enough time working on that technique to get all that good at it. Not every technique works with every genre. For example, try playing a Rasgueado during a blues.

Stanley Jordon, his musicality trumps the thin tapping tone big time.

[ColinO]

^^^^
Stanley Jordan is a bit of a different beast than the kind of tapping that I think we were talking about. He's sort of out there on his own.

[ASATcat]

Joe Pass

Yes Joe Pass.
He was guest artist when I was in collage in '85. He played solo on Cherokee at around 900bpm and brought the house down. Amazing.
But boy was he ever the jerk to end all jerks the way he treated the class. Even on stage with the school bands. He arrived with a bodygaurd or something. Right out the Godfather. Scary looking dude.
Before he even said hi he jumped on the teacher for missing the exit.
Incredibly rude dude. Rip.

[JohnoL]

Gambale's Natural High is one of the most impressive of his recordings (IMHO). Sample here:
Amazon.com: Natural High: Frank Gambale: Music

Ha. One of the tunes is "Have you met Tom Jones".

[Dana]

Dizzy's big 4 with Joe Pass. Tempo is a bit brisk...

[ASATcat]

Tapping can easily be adapted, whether or not it will ever be accepted is another story...there's such a stigma attached to it...unless you're stanley jordan...but that's a different approach to two hands on the fretboard...but so many people just see it as a show offy technique...

Plus, it sounds best on a guitar with lightish strings and very low action...And I for one can't give up my setup just yet.

I saw Stanley around '85 and he did two hand tapping ala EVH and I can say is.
Eddie would have dropped his jaw.

[JakeAcci]

Greg Duncan. Kills it, picks every note.

[ASATcat]

Dizzy's big 4 with Joe Pass. Tempo is a bit brisk...

After a second listening,
Just a bit brisk lol, that's around 330bpm. They can play that tempo. Damn.

[ASATcat]

There is a youtube of Adreas Ogburt (sic) and Martin Taylor at around 320, and Taylor is hanging on by a thread, andreas just burns through it.

[ASATcat]

Just wanted to post this, again roughly 295 - 300

[ecj]

Man, that Pass clip with Dizzy is just ridiculous.

Benson at a pretty speedy tempo:

I've always thought this was a pretty ridiculous clip, even though a lot of folks tend to not like McLaughlin's more scalar vocabulary. I think this might be the fastest tempo I've ever heard a guitar player work with. McLaughlin handles it like a champ:

[3625]

300 Club: For bebop it's Tal Farlow - he's The Cat - in terms of technical facility and more importantly the ability to be creative. I hear some players being able to cut it over the changes technically at very fast tempos, but Tal is in a league of his own when it comes to the actual improvisational content of his soloing. I'm referring here to the bebop language, not later players such as Metheny who has his own thing going.

Here's an example of Tal very early in his career with Red Norvo - of all Tal's recorded output, the Norvo trio stuff is when Tal's technique was at it's cleanest. The comping on this track is just unbelievable as well. Tal's often overlooked as a great player, due in part to his playing in the 70's to 90's which technically was a bit rough, but was incredibly inventive & creative. There's a reason why guys like Benson, McLaughlin and many others rate Tal right up there at the top of the tree.

[ASATcat]

Man, that Pass clip with Dizzy is just ridiculous.

Benson at a pretty speedy tempo:

I've always thought this was a pretty ridiculous clip, even though a lot of folks tend to not like McLaughlin's more scalar vocabulary. I think this might be the fastest tempo I've ever heard a guitar player work with. McLaughlin handles it like a champ:

Benson is playing beautifully at about 300
Mclaughlin is playing around 320, just like Dizzy and Pass.

I can play like that,,,

In half time

[Dana]

I can play like that,,,

In half time

Ha, ya me too. He he he

That McLaughlin on Carson clips is awesome.

[ASATcat]

300 Club: For bebop it's Tal Farlow - he's The Cat - in terms of technical facility and more importantly the ability to be creative. I hear some players being able to cut it over the changes technically at very fast tempos, but Tal is in a league of his own when it comes to the actual improvisational content of his soloing. I'm referring here to the bebop language, not later players such as Metheny who has his own thing going.

Here's an example of Tal very early in his career with Red Norvo - of all Tal's recorded output, the Norvo trio stuff is when Tal's technique was at it's cleanest. The comping on this track is just unbelievable as well. Tal's often overlooked as a great player, due in part to his playing in the 70's to 90's which technically was a bit rough, but was incredibly inventive & creative. There's a reason why guys like Benson, McLaughlin and many others rate Tal right up there at the top of the tree.

+ - 320 again, what is it with 320?

[ASATcat]

Max Roach with Clifford Brown playing Sweet Clifford clocks in at about 375 and I hear he recorded it once at close to 400.
According to The Drummers Cafe forum.

[ecj]

Benson is playing beautifully at about 300
Mclaughlin is playing around 320, just like Dizzy and Pass.

I can play like that,,,

In half time

What are you doing to try to find the tempos? Benson is a little sub-300 and Pass and McLaughlin are way up in the 340-350 range by my tapping into a tap based metronome.

[ASATcat]

What are you doing to try to find the tempos? Benson is a little sub-300 and Pass and McLaughlin are way up in the 340-350 range by my tapping into a tap based metronome.

I don't know what to tell other than I am using my Franz quartz
Metronome with a downbeat. I simply line it up and listen to the placement. It needs to match up for like ten seconds, if it gets off I adjust it. At 350 the Dizzy tune easily falls behind, just tried it again.
330 worked the best, so I don't know what to say. If you heard what I have, you would most likely agree. 330 and 350 are totally easy to hear the difference. Try your metronome and see how it works. My experience with tap tempos have shown me they are not always acurate. I woulld have a hard time believing my metro is off.
But anything is possible. It could be my metro and that would be sad for me. But it's quartz and doesn't flucuate,, I hope =)

[TrakaVobla]

Andreas burning!

And Pat also!

[ASATcat]

Thanks everyone for all the great contributions, not that thread is over, but what's been shared has expanded my outlook and I consider it a sucess. I've been looking at the variety of picking styles and that really hits home for me since I've been having wrist pain lately.
Adam Rogers, Pat Metheny and Benson have similar picking grips yet they use it in different ways. Metheny seems to use a "bounce" technique that is way different from those that keep the pick in the strings like Rogers. That gives things to try out.

Their are still players to post like Sylvian Luc and Mike Moreno etc. And I'll d that when I get to a real computer, not my phone.


Thanks again for a very well mannered and productive thread.
May the force of the 300 club be with you.