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There is an ongoing thread on playing fast with feeling and Russell Malone was on the griddle getting overcooked.
George Benson was brought up as the benchmark for feeling at 300bpm.
Well, it's 2013 and George has to share the bench in my opinion, no way is he getting kicked off, he's the man.
however their are other guys out there that can match his emotive qualities at 300 and actually surpass him with modern guitar styles.
Julian Lage just has to be one of these special players, of course this is and always be subjective, so this is just my opinion, so please take it with a grain of salt, no turf wars. But let's discuss the topic like mature people.
and please post other guitar players that belong to the elite 300 club.
and now for the videos
Bruce Forman - one of my favorite true bebop players with an incredible legato style. Does anyone sound more like a horn player, far and few between.
He is also a member of the 300 club
Here he is at 25 playing with Richie Cole and the madman Bobby Enriquez who is also beyond belief, as well as Richie.
here is Julian again at a bit slower tempo showing incredible octave displacement and feeling. Jorge Roeder is a great complementry player for Julian.
And Bruce playing a ballad showing his incredible legato style, he has really good humor as well.
Please post other members of the 300 club that play with the feeling of these guys. I'm into expanding.
but please, no turf wars, none of these guys deserve that. Right? Right.
enjoy.
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05-28-2013 07:37 PM
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These cats are great.
I never count tempos, but other cats who I really enjoy hearing play fast are Pat Metheny, Adrien Moignard, James Emery, Frank Gambale, 50's era Tal Farlow, Wes, Vic Juris, Kriesberg, Paco de Lucia, Boulou Ferre, our forum's own Sylvain Courtney, Mark Whitfield, Adam Rogers, lots of players...sure I'm missing plenty.
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I'd cut off my left hand to have Julian's right hand.
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Hey Dana, you didn't give the name of the player. But that interesting way he hls his pick tells me this is Mike Moreno. He is definately in the 300 club, indeed. I tried to cop his picking style, weird, not really Benson picking, sort f his own thing.
Thanks
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Isn't that Rogers?
Moreno's another...his "between the lines" is one of my favorites of recent years. Shouldn't have missed him on my list.
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Ok Dana, got it, Adam Rogers, definately als.
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In my opinion, I think Metheny is the only guy I can think of who is in the generation after Benson, Martino, etc., that really came up with something different in order to handle fast tempos fluidly that has worked in jazz guitar. A lot of the other guys are just playing cleaned up versions of some of the older techniques. Scofield definitely innovated, too, but I'm not sure his system works that great at high speeds.
I like Julian Lage, but don't hear anything revolutionary myself in the way he's addressing the instrument. It's not like the first time when I heard Metheny and thought, "What the hell is that? Is that even a guitar?"
Holdsworth has to be another guy who kind of expanded what was possible.
I continue to be surprised that no one has brought over a lot of the "shredder" stuff to the jazz guitar. I see some of these vids of guys on YouTube just destroying arpeggios, etc., and I wonder why no one is doing it in a jazz combo. That high-gain rock tone is pretty obnoxious, so maybe they can't find anyone who will play with them
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Hi gain covers a lot of sins. And jazz chords sound like shit.
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I wish I new how to copy a url and posting it here with my android, I cpied the url but can't post it.
I was trying to post Mike Moreno =/
Can someone do it for me?
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Hey ECJ, I'm talking about players emoting at 300, never heard Holdsworth play at that tempo.
And if it was fast playing at slower pace, I'd have to vote for Shawn Lane. That boy was unreal rip.
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In that clip, maybe not. However I think his clarity of attack, time feel, lyricism, and musical logic are pretty astounding.
Originally Posted by ecj
Maybe it's a strange thing to say, but I think something revolutionary about Julian Lage is that he just gets an amazingly clear and descriptive sound out of acoustic guitars, just incredible control and dynamics. I think he just manages to play the guitar the way it's 'supposed' to be played, and do it at this incredibly high level. I just can't think of anybody that comes close to his level of clarity and dynamic control. Not that it's a competition, I'm just saying it's impressive and I think it makes him stand out.
Harmonically/melodically/rhythmically, in other clips (and on his CDs) he does some pretty wild stuff. Have you seen the solo guitar etudes he wrote? https://www.youtube.com/results?q=ju...-8&sa=N&tab=w1
It is a pretty different technique even without the gain, just a really different sound, but I bet a lot of those guys could transfer over, work on their feel, listen to a lot of records. Honestly, I come from a rock background and did some time with 'shredder' techniques, and when I hear Benson it sounds so sloppy! I enjoy it and I don't judge it for not sounding like Steve Vai, of course, my point is just that the technical goal posts are different.I continue to be surprised that no one has brought over a lot of the "shredder" stuff to the jazz guitar. I see some of these vids of guys on YouTube just destroying arpeggios, etc., and I wonder why no one is doing it in a jazz combo. That high-gain rock tone is pretty obnoxious, so maybe they can't find anyone who will play with them
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Lage is so cool because he probably treats the guitar like a guitar more than any player going today...he also looks like he's having a blast, which always loosens me up when watching so I can just enjoy....he's everything good about guitar playing IMHO.
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Jack Wilkins...on a f-ing 12 string!
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Tim Miller
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Let's not forget Mike Stern
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He doesn't play as fast as any of these guys, but when he's playing his jazzy way with on the fly microtonality and touch, there is no one as emotive as Steve Kimock. I'll take that to the bank.
He was one of Julian Lages teachers and I've seen them play together at one of Steves gigs. I was fortunate to hire Steve and Julian for a clinic once and that was so cool.
Of course some purists of jazz may disagree, but Julian digs Steve and gives him the respect he deserves. That works for me.
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Joe Pass
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "shredder" stuff. A lot of players like Adam Rogers are using sweep or economy picking which I usually associate with the shredders. As far as tone, I agree with Jeff Matz. The high gain tone doesn't seem to work well with jazz, IMO.
I have a terrible picking technique. I’d love to be able to pick like Adam Rogers. Perhaps after 100 years of practice.
Dana
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Sweep picking is not the property of Malmsteen. It is simply one more tehnique. Anyone wanting to play one note arps across the neck could use it. Heck, Django used it often
I wonder why Django didn't simply flip his guitar around to a lefty?
I would have.Last edited by ASATcat; 05-29-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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I didn't say it was. I was simply trying to find out what ecj was referring to when he said.
I wasn't sure if he was referring to technique, or sound. Originally Posted by ecj
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Can someone have excellant technique and lack in the emotive department. I have to a big YES.
Of couse that all depends on ones definition of emotive.
Smiles and painful constipation faces tells me this person is emoting and stonefaced players tend belong to a lack of emotion in theirplaying.
SCO is a perfect example of the face = emotive playing. Same with Julian and Robben Ford and Pat Metheny and Frisell. Now Stern has the face and emotion but I don't get his emotion. So wtf do I know lol. I tend to think Stern smile is more for the audience not a reflection of his feeling the music. Bur wtf do I know. =)
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Technique. The big sweep arpeggios that you hear a lot of could easily be adapted to jazz tonality - guys like Jason Becker, e.g. I guess Frank Gambale is someone I should've included in the list of "guys who have come up with new ways to play jazz fast", but I haven't ever heard him play at fast tempos, just fast stuff over slower tempos like Holdsworth. Playing a song at 300+ is another animal. Originally Posted by Dana
I've always figured someone would come up with a way to use Val Halen-style tapping licks to do something like Coltrane's stacked chords, since you can easily voice some really wild interval spread stuff. I'd be working on it myself, but I'm a technique moron and have a hard enough time just getting the basics together.
ecj
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Gambale's Natural High is one of the most impressive of his recordings (IMHO). Sample here:
Amazon.com: Natural High: Frank Gambale: Music
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Tapping can easily be adapted, whether or not it will ever be accepted is another story...there's such a stigma attached to it...unless you're stanley jordan...but that's a different approach to two hands on the fretboard...but so many people just see it as a show offy technique...
Plus, it sounds best on a guitar with lightish strings and very low action...And I for one can't give up my setup just yet.
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